Tell me about your lapping day passing rules . . .

When I organize lapping events, the rules are as follows: the car being passed must point-by the faster car, in a designated area (straightaways). The passing car moves off the line, and passes on the side in the direction of the next upcoming corner. We are a little more relaxed with our Advanced group -- still always a point-by, but not limited to a straight. The faster car always moves off the line, regardless.

I was surprised to read an article in Car and Driver that said the slower car moves off line to allow the faster car to pass.

What do your clubs do?

All my point to pass experience is as you describe; the faster car moves off line. The events I go to are open lapping, so only passing in the straights.

What you state above is exactly correct. I've been to club events where they get it backwards. They explain it "as overtaken car moves off line". I'm the guy in the back standing up telling them what they're doing is wrong and is endangers the the participants. C&D is wrong.

We try to instill on drivers that whatever you do, you need a point and you need to make it snappy. We usually recommend the pointer to move right a hair and half-throttle it. Passing is always on the left, but on a roval, that's the turn direction anyways.

BMW CCA instructor groups - pass anywhere with point-by or atleast a clear signal inside the car if nets are up. I do less and less in car instructing as years go by because of this nonsense.

For things I'm willing to pay for... (Jeffapalooza, Group 52, etc) it's always going to be pass anywhere no point-by. Usually licensed racers or invitation only so there is a common denominator to keep berkeley ups to a minimum.

And then there is Club Racing ... which is pass with as much fighting as possible but contact is frowned upon ;). This is where all my track money goes these days.

ZOO wrote: I was surprised to read an article in Car and Driver that said the slower car moves off line to allow the faster car to pass. What do your clubs do?

That is ridiculous. If we are training students or just enjoying ourselves as drivers - the idea of giving permission to pass is asinine. Clubs should be taking the initiative to teach 360deg. awareness and that both cars have a responsibility to complete a successful position change. Both cars should be predictable and it should always, always always be the overtaking car's job to get by cleanly. The over-taken car's job is to leave room and BE PREDICTABLE. That means staying on line.

If I'm coming on you like the hammers of hell I'm already planning where, when and how I'm going to go by you to cost both of us as little time as possible. If you (not you... but... you) suddenly move offline or do anything to "help" me besides driving predictably and knowing I'm there you are very likely going to cause confusion. It is often courteous to just ack that you see an overtaking car with a little wave or point in the middle of the car.

Point-bys should be considered "I see you and understand my role here" not "you have my permission to pass". It is unfortunate that insurance companies involve themselves in our schools to the point that this nonsense has propagated to the degree it has.

Once people have made the leap to driving without the woobie - they never want to go back.

All the events I've done is slower car points and moves off line faster car overtakes on line in designated zones. This was HPDE with PCA and with a local group. The theory was the faster car maintains correct track position and the slower car is able to reduce their speed to allow for a quick pass while not being online if another car approaches to quickly. The overtaken car accelerates and merges back to the race line before the next corner.

At Hallett's own "HST" (High Speed Touring), the rules are passing only on straights, point-by isn't necessary but it's a nice courtesy to show the other drivers you know they are there.

Passing driver goes off line. No Passing between Turns 2-6 because of the short straights and blind corners.

The big problem I ran into out there were guys on bikes or in cars with more power that park it in corners than give you a point-by but don't let off. Guy, I'm not going to pass your Supra in my 1.6 Miata unless you lift.

BTW this whole "slower driver moves off line" seems really messed up to me considering it is the overtaking driver's responsibility to make a pass safely.

It's weird that I have never done a track day in my car, but I have on my bikes. Motorcycle track days are usually broken down that Novices can only pass on straights, Intermediates can pass on straights and designated turns, and Advanced riders can pass wherever. In all of these classes it is the overtaking bikes responsibility to ensure a safe pass. 360 degree awareness is preached on. Surprises me that car track days are as restrictive as this when speeds are less and crashes usually result is less bodily harm than on a motorcycle.

z31maniac wrote: The big problem I ran into out there were guys on bikes or in cars with more power that park it in corners than give you a point-by but don't let off. Guy, I'm not going to pass your Supra in my 1.6 Miata unless you lift.

This is our biggest issue. It's why we encourage you to actively slow down. Then again, our PDXs are mostly novice territory. The fast guys know where to get cheaper non-SCCA laptime.

the slower guy moves off line? That seems like a recipe for disaster.

toad9977 wrote: It's weird that I have never done a track day in my car, but I have on my bikes. Motorcycle track days are usually broken down that Novices can only pass on straights, Intermediates can pass on straights and designated turns, and Advanced riders can pass wherever. In all of these classes it is the overtaking bikes responsibility to ensure a safe pass. 360 degree awareness is preached on. Surprises me that car track days are as restrictive as this when speeds are less and crashes usually result is less bodily harm than on a motorcycle.

One word: insurance. Open passing means elevated costs.

faster? slower? I guess I like to think of it slightly differently - in a race the car in front (up to a certian - debatable - point, but this is so close it should be moot for HPDE) has 'right of way' and should predictably stay on the racing line. the car behind needs to find a way around.

does get tough with fast straight-line cars with new drivers though.

I honestly hate Point-bys, because 1) you are taking your hand off of the shifter or steering wheel 2)I think it breaks the rhythm. I understand why, but if you are teaching them to race, the idea is not to pull over, but to race, be smart, and not loose time. When I am getting overtaken I usually put my vehicle in a safe situation, where I don't loose a ton of time and even if the person out brakes themselves I can still get behind and draft or go side by side before the next corner.

The group I run with most has the passing rule of only passing on the driver side. It was instituted a few years back and has worked really well with no complaints and no on track contact or close calls that I am aware of. The passing zones are just a straight or 2 for the most inexperienced group after extra class time and ride or ride along with instructor. As the groups move toward more experience there are more areas designated for passing. Group 1 is for instructors and advanced/experienced participants with open passing. I am put in group 1 but usually have a slower car than most in the group. I still give a point by as a courtesy to indicate I will ease up on the throttle and that I will be predictable holding my line as well as that I see them or multiple cars with multiple point bys.

I have been doing HPDE with multiple groups since 1997 and raced SCCA in 03-04. I have never damaged my car or anyone elses and have not witnessed contact using point bys. Being predictable seems to be the key whether point bys are used on the left,right,over the roof,inside or with arm restraints.

Track days are NOT racing schools!!!...please remember this.

If you chop over in front of the car you just passed you're going to pepper their front with sand/gravel and possibly crack a windshield. If your pass is near the end of a straight just keep in your lane slowing a little more than you would on the standard line until you intersect the racing line and turn in.

The hardest thing to ever do on the track is be the slowest car in a group and have to constantly monitor for overtaking cars. You faster guys, please think about that.

Novice group drivers should stay in the "linear" driving dynamic range where they are hitting there marks without using significant slip angle or drift/sliding. This is the group where you learn proper track safety & courtesy, something I see lacking in many drivers in Intermediate groups.

admc58 wrote: Track days are NOT racing schools!!!...please remember this. The hardest thing to ever do on the track is be the slowest car in a group and have to constantly monitor for overtaking cars. You faster guys, please think about that.

this something that GPS sometimes forgets

another hard thing in DE's is to be the lowest hp car there … and constantly having to coast through corners because high speed/high hp cars won't slow to let you by… we'er NOT racing .. hey you in the corvette … there's a CRX on your butt… there's a reason he's there …pull over, let him pass, follow and see if you can learn something

Always been slower car stays on line for my experiences. If it were different I wouldn't run with that organization.

Having a slower car in a HPDE shouldn't submit you to punishment. You're there to learn and you're not learning anything if you're constantly moving off line.

Too many people trying to win HPDE lol, people have no chill sometimes.

wbjones wrote:

admc58 wrote: Track days are NOT racing schools!!!...please remember this. The hardest thing to ever do on the track is be the slowest car in a group and have to constantly monitor for overtaking cars. You faster guys, please think about that.

this something that GPS sometimes forgets

I do not forget this - I am often in the slower car on purpose. If you are in a slower car it is not an excuse not to have situational awareness and manage yourself in traffic. The whole place shouldn't have to bow to the lowest common denominator when all that is necessary is a little training in how to cope properly. Remember - you don't get to give permission on the way to the track yet everyone manages it just fine. It is a false sense of security that keeps HPDE drivers from really learning how to work it out there. It stifles their enjoyment too.

It can be a lot of fun and a great learning experience to be in a slow car and over-taken by faster cars. Anyone who has ever opened the door a bit then tucked in just inches behind the faster car perfectly enough to catch a tow out of the corner can attest. You can also pass him back if he throws out the boat anchor in the next corner so... all the Miata guys who complain about the Z-06 guys... what the hell are you complaining about? This is YOUR time to shine

every time a thread of this nature comes up you let us know how you feel about point by's …

in the novice class I totally disagree with you … it does have to be that way …. way to much sensory overload for most folk their first couple of times on track

even in intermediate, the sensory overload can be huge … especially since you don't know if the intermediate drivers are experienced … i.e. ready to move on to advanced, or if this is their first time without an instructor …

sure point by's can be frustrating at times … but this is NOT a racing school … as others have pointed out … ins requirements … without the ins. there wouldn't be any driving schools

I don't know how NASA gets away with the open passing/no NEED for point by's in HPDE4, but it IS the final step before moving to TT or racing

and to the Miata v. corvette …. no chance to shine … if I'm catching you at the end of the straight, the only way I can get by is to dive bomb you … sorry … as much as you'd like it to be, that's something that just CAN'T be in DE's

nocones wrote: All the events I've done is slower car points and moves off line faster car overtakes on line in designated zones. This was HPDE with PCA and with a local group. The theory was the faster car maintains correct track position and the slower car is able to reduce their speed to allow for a quick pass while not being online if another car approaches to quickly. The overtaken car accelerates and merges back to the race line before the next corner.

That is completely backwards from every HPDE I've run in or instructed.

I guess the 'idea' is that the faster car won't have a slower lap time, but this is HPDE, not Time Trials. A faster car can plan a passing trajectory pretty easily. If the passing car has to wait for the slower car to signal and move over, now he may have to replan his pass. This just screws up two people's driving instead of one. I don't think I'd run with a group that does this.

Point-by's I do like. Our instructor group is "pass anywhere, point-by optional" but I still give a point to at least let the guy passing me know I saw him.

even with TT in NASA-SE you're encouraged to give a point by (not required) and at the drivers meeting it's emphasized that just because the car you're catching is on the outside and hasn't turned into the apex yet, he/she isn't necessarily leaving you that line … in other words …if no point, then don't presume that a dive bomb is acceptable … this is TT not W2W racing

wbjones wrote: every time a thread of this nature comes up you let us know how you feel about point by's …

I do this relentlessly because I love you and want you to get the most from you track dollars. That, an some one is wrong on the internet and I cannot rest until it's been put right.

actually I do get my moneys worth from my time on track … but I'm doing TT's now, and only occasionally a DE

keep in mind that nothing is going to change when it comes to DE's … just the nature of the beast … racing schools …on the other hand

and even in actual races I'll still give a point a lot of times … in Lemons and Chump, there's often a huge disparity in cars and driver experience/talent … if you're coming on me with a huge disparity in speed, more than likely I'll point where I want you to go … just so there's no misunderstanding