The Great Mk1 Mr2 or Miata Debate

ReverendDexter wrote: Where are these cheap 2ZZ-swapped MR2s that people speak of? I've *heard* of two, never seen pics, and certainly never seen one in the wild. Meanwhile I've seen more Elises than I can count.

I imagine they live in the same fantasy world where you can find Miatas and RX7s in clean shape for cheap.

I haven't personally seen the 2zz-swapped MR-Ss for that price, but i've seen more than a fair share of stockers for that price, and they quite handily keep with Miatas in every way shape and form.

I've only seen 1 2ZZ Spyder for sale here and they wanted $20,000!

Uh they are out there. I sold mine for $6k (the one that I bought for $5.5k) with a new top, tires, blah-blah-blah. Mine was bought from a friend and a high miler (150k on the body 115k on the motor) but it ran like a champ. Poke around enough and you'll find the deals. My friend that just got the Miata got it from a mutual friend and it came loaded with Mazda comp bits and the price was $2k while we found other Miatas for 2x as much with 1/2 the stuff.

http://spyderchat.com/forums/showthread.php?42091-2001-Spyder-2zz-swap-6-speed-LSD-151k-miles-%28body%29-7200-obo-%28Pittsburgh-area%29 That was my old car, I coulda sold it eons before but I was being picky on who got the car.

Best deals are your friends cars. You guys would hate my $68 325iX, that one was free all I paid for was tags, registration and insurance. Although I do return it after 1 year, but still free ride is awesomer than Chuck Norris kicking Jack Bauer's ass.

93celicaGT2 wrote:

ReverendDexter wrote: Where are these cheap 2ZZ-swapped MR2s that people speak of? I've *heard* of two, never seen pics, and certainly never seen one in the wild. Meanwhile I've seen more Elises than I can count.

I imagine they live in the same fantasy world where you can find Miatas and RX7s in clean shape for cheap. I haven't personally seen the 2zz-swapped MR-Ss for that price, but i've seen more than a fair share of stockers for that price, and they quite handily keep with Miatas in every way shape and form.

I have got to get me some of what you smoke...

$2500 stock S5 GTU

$2200 MINT S5 'Vert

$2200 GSL-SE (13B FB)

$4000 MINT 96 Miata WITH Hardtop

$2495 NA with Hardtop!

$3500 94 with a new softtop!

2009 Nationals Results Shows that in CS the NC netted 4 trophies versus the Spyder's best of 19th. Also, an NC won CSL. ES was a little closer with 5 trophies each to the NA/NB and the MR2, but it was a Miata crowned Champion. MR2's don't even bother in STS, yet even the Miata can score 6 trophies against the true Sheeple car, the CRX.

Drink that Kool-Aid man...

I've had two AW11 MR2s, an 88 and my current 89 for 10 years now. Two other negatives/common problems: Wiper switch goes bad, eliminating the intermittant and self-parking, so you have to turn it off manually (just an annoyance), and front brake lockup under competition conditions.

That said, they have lots of room inside, two trunks so you can actually go someplace on a multi-day trip, and mine both averaged in the mid-30 mpg range. In 30,000 miles on the 89 i've averaged about 34 mpg overall (very little city driving, but lots of autocrosses and around 150 track miles on a twisty track). The 4AGE is a great engine, but well enough tuned by the ractory that there isn't much more power available with normal bolt ons - not near as much development room as Miatas, and very little aftermarket.

It's been my experience that the early cars (85 and 86) were the snap oversteerers; the "late"cars (87 - 89 had a couple of subtle suspension tweeks that make the car much less of an oversteerer. My principal handling woe (other than the brakes) was understeer, and I've added a rear swaybar and Eibachs that shift the spring rate ratio rearward. The car is very forgiving on RE-11s and 15x7 wheels.

But it's a tank, weight-wise - figure 2400 lbs with the sunroof (not the t-top, that's even heavier). So yes the SC would be a big improvement. When I track the car with its 115 bhp, hitting the straight is sort of like stepping on a high-revving sponge.

So for racing, Miatas are lighter and have way more deveolpment potential ( seemed like just about every one at yesterday's track day had an intercooler lurking in the nose - but this is in FM's backyard) - but the MR2 is a great all-around sports car, and the handling is very good with just a couple of tweeks.

A good Mk1 is a great car, one of Toyota's best ever IMHO. But I'm sort of looking for a 93 - 95 Mk2 Turbo. Just once I'd like to have a powerful car with ABS.

Javelin wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote:

ReverendDexter wrote: Where are these cheap 2ZZ-swapped MR2s that people speak of? I've *heard* of two, never seen pics, and certainly never seen one in the wild. Meanwhile I've seen more Elises than I can count.

I imagine they live in the same fantasy world where you can find Miatas and RX7s in clean shape for cheap. I haven't personally seen the 2zz-swapped MR-Ss for that price, but i've seen more than a fair share of stockers for that price, and they quite handily keep with Miatas in every way shape and form.

I have *got* to get me some of what you smoke... $2500 stock S5 GTU $2200 MINT S5 'Vert $2200 GSL-SE (13B FB) $4000 MINT 96 Miata WITH Hardtop $2495 NA with Hardtop! $3500 94 with a new softtop! 2009 Nationals Results Shows that in CS the NC netted 4 trophies versus the Spyder's best of 19th. Also, an NC won CSL. ES was a little closer with 5 trophies each to the NA/NB and the MR2, but it was a Miata crowned Champion. MR2's don't even bother in STS, yet even the Miata can score 6 trophies against the true Sheeple car, the CRX. Drink that Kool-Aid man...

You're making no sense. Again. 1) I don't smoke. 2) I'm quite obviously NOT drinking the Kool-Aid, because i don't own a Miata.

How about we all just recognize that there's different opinions, and those opinions are what give people options, and we move on. Mkay?

For the record, i don't live in Portland. Cheap clean Miatas and RX7s worth buying don't seem to exist here. Hilariously, i can get MR2s all day every day.

Immovable rock meets immovable force, with some stupid personal jabs thrown in. Love it.

But at the end of it all. I'll concede the win to you, since you cared enough to go searching for examples and made some fancy links. You've opened my eyes. The MR2 is a piece of crap compared to the Miata.

Too bad. I'll keep looking for my piece of crap. Because my opinion says that i enjoy driving them more, and i know enough about them to make one competitive to the point that i care.

If ever a car deserved an Autobot emblem, its the 1st gen MR2. That, alone, might sway my vote.

I currently own both a 86 Mr2 and a 92 Miata. I have driven the 2nd gen Miata but didn't care for it as much as the 1st gen Miata. I have never driven the 2nd or 3rd gen Mr2. Between the first gen Miata and the Mr2, based simply on the car itself, I would go with the Mr2, assuming you can find a really good one. On the other hand, 1st gen Miatas have much better aftermarket support than the Mr2, more oppotunities to race (spec miata) and unmatched used parts availability. That combination is tough to beat. Last but not least, really nice ones are very easy to find, which is absolutely not the case with the 1st gen Mr2.

Javelin wrote: Sorry bub, you lose:

I'm digging that color. Anyone know what it is? I'm fixing to paint my SA, can't decide between something like this or something like winning blue.

Sort bout the thread Jack.

Oops sorry bout the thread jack. Darn predictive text.

berkeley it.

Deleted.

75% of the cars i own are Mazdas. I'm out of this POS thread.

Javelin wrote: NA Miata > SA/FB RX-7 > AW11 MR2 > NB Miata > 2G MR2 Really can't go wrong with any of them, but this is where my 2 cents lies.

As someone who has owned 4 of the five cars on your list, I'll go ahead and say that I think its spot-on. Never had an NB Miata, so I would've just left it off the list.

They're both great cars. Go drive them and decide what you prefer.

The Miata is the "EASY" button. No doubt.

Lighter, better suspension, generally less rust, more aftermarket, blah, blah, blah

Would I trade my AW11? Cold day in hell.

Not that I dislike Miatas, I just loooove the MR2 (why don't you marry it?). In fact, you better love your AW11, because if you don't it'll simply rot away. For a long-term ownership, think about replacing every last piece of rubber on the car, or wait for it to sideline the car and hope that nothing else gets damaged in the process. At least when you eventually fix everything that's aging, it stays fixed. I guess the earliest Miatas aren't that far away from the same age either though.

Every time I drive it, I marvel at how different it feels compared to just about everything else. Between it's drivetrain layout, short wheelbase, and uber-80's styling it just pushes all my buttons at once. I know it's an emotional thing, and not a rational one, but I just can't say that about the Miata. Sometimes I wish I could though, as my life would probably be a lot easier.

Autocross - the AW11 is at a disadvantage in the stock and lightly modified classes (STS). I don't think it matters on a local level, but it'd be real tough at Nationals in those classes. They do pretty darn well in the more highly modified classes though when you can really start to move stuff around and deal with their shortcomings (strut suspension geometry, move weight to the front, remove weight period). Steve Hoelscher's (sp?) DP champ AW11 comes to mind. Honestly though, I could give a rat's ass. The car is still faster than me and is more fun than a bag of monkeys with a kitten thrown in for good measure.

Snap Oversteer issue on early cars - I call BS. I have an "early" 86 and the only time I've ever spun is doing dumb E36 M3 at an autocross. I've refreshed the suspension though with bushings, ball joints, tie rods, and of course springs/shocks. Just don't drive it like a FWD Honda and you'll be ok.

And just because I finally have a reason to post it, here's my noob-magneted ride.

BTW - Kinda surprised at the amount of vitriol in this thread. I had no idea the controversy was so fierce!

Matt B wrote: BTW - Kinda surprised at the amount of vitriol in this thread. I had no idea the controversy was so fierce!

Me too. That's the problem with opinions, I guess.

Anyhow, you've got a whole list of winners. I might change the order, but that's based strictly on my own preferences and prejudices. YMMV, drive what you like!

Tom Heath wrote:

Matt B wrote: BTW - Kinda surprised at the amount of vitriol in this thread. I had no idea the controversy was so fierce!

Me too. That's the problem with opinions, I guess. Anyhow, you've got a whole list of winners. I might change the order, but that's based strictly on my own preferences and prejudices. YMMV, drive what you like!

Wait... the words "opinion" and "fact" AREN'T interchangeable?

I think these are the best.

I would much rather have any of these then a Japanese sports car.

Ty MR2 evils: Clunky steering over bumps - cheap $2 busing inside the steering rack. This will be needed on every MR2, as they only last about 30k. Rust, rust, rust. Cars fall into two camps: Rust-free or rust buckets. There are plenty of rust free cars around if you look outside of the rust belt.

Tell me more about that first point, because I think that is my car. How hard is it to replace? I thought I did all of the bushings in mine, but that doesn't sound familiar.

Point #2 is a complete lie. There are no rust-free AW11s out there. :)

In reply to 96DXCivic:

Imagine one of those that you can hop in every day and drive without having to work on it. The closest you can come to a reliable brit is to buy a Miata.

MrJoshua wrote: In reply to 96DXCivic: Imagine one of those that you can hop in every day and drive without having to work on it. The closest you can come to a reliable brit is to buy a Miata.

But for some reason the Miata has just never pushed my buttons.

One other thing to consider, the top on a Miata goes down. That is good on a sunny day, and an issue for track work. Personal preference again.

When shopping for an AW11, you will find a lot of rusted, high mileage cars. I love them, but they are all stock or worse and require some love.

When shopping for Miatas, you can often find race-tuned versions with roll bars and upgrades out the wazoo. That may sway you one way or the other.

I also think the interior of the Miata has aged better. Personal opinion, but no one will mistake the MR2 for anything but a child of the 80s.

My '85 is very prone to spinning, but I have limited brain cells left to counteract a spin, so it might be driver error.

One other thing to consider, the top on a Miata goes down. That is good on a sunny day, and an issue for track work. Personal preference again.

When shopping for an AW11, you will find a lot of rusted, high mileage cars. I love them, but they are all stock or worse and require some love.

When shopping for Miatas, you can often find race-tuned versions with roll bars and upgrades out the wazoo. That may sway you one way or the other.

I also think the interior of the Miata has aged better. Personal opinion, but no one will mistake the MR2 for anything but a child of the 80s.

My '85 is very prone to spinning, but I have limited brain cells left to counteract a spin, so it might be driver error.

Interesting reading. Here's my view, for whatever it's actually worth. I'm not an "expert", a mechanic, and YMMV, yadda, yadda, yadda...

Over the past 10 years, I've owned 3 MK1s, one MK2, two NA Miatas and my current daily driver is an NC Miata. If you ask me to compare the NA Miata to the MK1, I'll take the MK1. Don't know how else to put it, but it was just more "fun"...and I'm saying that having loved my NA Miatas. But there was something about the way the MK1 handles, maybe due to engine location... My early Miatas seemed as capable as the MK1, but the MK1 just was more involving to drive. I never autox'd the NA, so I can't say much about driving at the limits. I learned to autox on an MK1. Sure, any car with the engine behind the driver has potential for oversteer, but I wouldn't classify it as "snap" or "scary". I only spun it a handful of times. It turned in like nothing else I've ever driven and was easy to control. A lot of its' weak points were already discussed in this thread...rust, wiper switch, etc... (add headlight motors to the list), but the cars are pretty old by this point, so you'd expect to have to fix, replace things. I'd absolutely love to have another one.

There's no way to compare the MK1 to newer Miatas. Thechnology changes fast and engineering improvements make a huge difference. My NC Miata is a whole different car than an MK1, no way to actually compare them.

pinchvalve wrote: I also think the interior of the Miata has aged better. Personal opinion, but no one will mistake the MR2 for anything but a child of the 80s.

I think that's why I like it, being a child of the 80's myself. When I first got the car, I used to joke with my friends that they should be careful getting in, so they wouldn't hurt themselves on the crazy angles. Surprisingly, they had pretty good crash worthiness for the time period according to the data.

pinchvalve wrote: My '85 is very prone to spinning, but I have limited brain cells left to counteract a spin, so it might be driver error.

Out of curiosity, what suspension bits are you running? Are you using a rear sway bar? Are you using the stock rear tie-rods? I have my own half-baked theories as to why the reputation/tendency exists, which may or may not apply to your setup.

You probably already know a lot of this, but I'll post it for the sake of the discussion. I apologize in advance if I'm preaching to the choir.

First, the 85-86 rear tie rods have a relatively sloppy inner chassis tie-rod end that causes unwanted toe-out under hard cornering, especially as it gets older. The TwosRUs.com tie rods replace that with a heim-joint, problem solved.

Second, probably more importantly, I think that the traditional approach to spring rates and sway bars is wrong for the MR2. Stiffer springs on the heavy end of the car + the big swaybars everybody thinks they need + short wheelbase + strut suspension = a tail happy car. I'm sure it's fun below 8/10ths and feels zippy on the street, but I think the lost rear mechanical grip shows itself at the limit. I wouldn't harp on this so bad if every OTS spring kit (including the non-custom GC rates) didn't come stiffer in the rear. (hehe)

That said, I've been pleasantly surprised at how neutral my car handles with a stock front bar, no rear bar, konis, and the lowly Eibach Prokit - which is progressive (booo!) and rear-stiff. Honestly, I think it's the lack of a rear bar that helps maintain rear grip. When I first started autocrossing the car I half-expected understeer to be a problem without the rear bar, but it only shows up when I've simply gone in too hot and there's not enough front tire to do what I'm asking. Uncontrollable oversteer really only shows up when I've done something ham-fisted. This is on crappy all-season Ziex's as well.

OK,

So MK1 MR2 with a 2GR-FE

OR

An E30 with a S50/52 swap

OR

A Miata with a comparable swap