The second half of the Toyobaru debuts

In reply to Taiden:

Are you planning on buying one new from Toyota or Subaru? which one?

I've been watching these two since 2008. I was super psyched for the Toyota, but man the Subaru looks beautiful. I hope the wing is an option on the real product.

Both! Collect them all. But you're right, I'll probably never buy a new vehicle. I just have blind faith in Subaru and Toyota and their efforts on this product.

irish44j wrote: ok, "glut" was probably the wrong word, but there is no shortage of high-quality, high-performance, affordable RWD coupes/sportscars that could be cross-shopped with a $30k BRZ....v6 Mustang, 370z, Miata, Genesis, and of course there will be the Scion version of it as well....which will likely be cheaper, and will sell more.

I agree $30k is too much for what the current educated speculation says these cars will be.

That said...

V6 Mustang - minimum 3400 lbs

370Z - no back seats

Miata - no roof, no back seats

Genesis - underperforming 2.0T (soon to be remedied), minimum 3300 lbs

None have the combination of 4-cylinder, RWD, hardtop, and 2+2. The closest to that is the RX8, which is hard to justify at current prices due to it's performance:economy ratio (something's wrong when a V8 not only makes double the power but spins just as fast and gets 50% better mileage).

4cylndrfury wrote: In reply to Grizz: pretty much EVERY vehicle should include an LS variant option, regardless of make or model...Im talking to you Mazda

JoeyM wrote: pretty....I may pick one up in 15 years when the depreciation curve makes that reasonable for me

I guess I'll have one in a few decades or so.

Excited about the car, but I can't afford a suitable people mover for my family yet.

Meh. I would rather have an Abarth.

Taiden wrote:

irish44j wrote:

Taiden wrote: Because the BRZ is going to feel way better

I'm not denying the very distinct possibility that that will be the case, but the only basis for this statement is everyone's hopes and dreams at the moment....

I consider it fact, because if it's not true, it will have been a complete waste of money for both Toyota and Subaru, because as stated already, there are other cars that will outperform it numerically. I have faith that neither company would find themselves neck deep in an enthusiast oriented product that sucks.

It's been known to happen...

Toyota....3rd gen MR2

Honda....that new CRX wannabe abomination

Subaru....SVX

Mitsubishi....Eclipse

Making a car to orient to "enthusiasts only" is a money-loser every time. We all know Toyota is all about mass-market appeal and selling alot of cars. I don't find it all that hard to believe that the Toyota/Scion won't be as "enthusiast" as everyone seems to expect.

Because even if it sucks to hard-core enthusiasts, its looks will guarantee that alot will be sold to teenagers, mid-life-crisis'ers who can't afford a Porsche, etc. but want a car that "looks fast" or "looks badass." And those groups are alot bigger than the enthusiast community.

And so we get back to sales volume. Niche enthusiast cars with stiff suspension, high-revving engines, limited utility, and RWD don't make much money for the company.

As to the Subaru version, they don't need to bring in more enthusiasts. They already (arguably) already have one of the biggest "motorsports enthusiast" clientele of any car company by having the WRX/STi.

Again, we'll see. It may be a great chassis that is just begging for afermarket upgrades (much like my 09 wrx). If it has the perfect weight balance as expected, that will get is most of the way there already. But I don't see it being an out-of-the-box track/autocross dominator, that's all.

Even if it disappoints the enthusiasts (like us), it will probably be a sales success to the non-enthusiats - in which case it will be a bigger win for Toyota/Suaru/Scion.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to Taiden: Are you planning on buying one new from Toyota or Subaru? which one?

I might buy one of them, which is why I'm following the Toyobaru's development so closely. Inside Line had a test drive of one of the prototype Toyota FT-86s and said it drove basically like a hardtop Miata:

http://www.insideline.com/scion/fr-s/2013/2013-scion-fr-s-first-drive.html

Obviously, it's a prototype and things may change, but I like the sound of it so far. I'll probably test-drive the Scion only unless a) the Subaru is the sportier car, b) is comparably priced, and c) is released around the same time.

irish44j wrote: Toyota....3rd gen MR2 Honda....that new CRX wannabe abomination

What's wrong with those cars?

93EXCivic wrote:

irish44j wrote: Toyota....3rd gen MR2 Honda....that new CRX wannabe abomination

What's wrong with those cars?

nothing is wrong with them per se. but neither of them were the "enthusiast" cars that the "enthusiast community" was hoping for/expecting when first word of them came out.

The last-gen MR2 is a fine car on its own, but hardly the "poor man's ferrari" that the 2nd gen was (particularly in appearance). It went mainstream and certainly sold better, but isn't generally seen as a "performance car" like the original one was. I see more college girls driving them than anyone else.

The CR-Z same thing....it's actually probably a better car than the original CRX as an economical 2-seater, but definitely not what the enthusiasts expected or wanted in a performance sense.. I don't see the "Honda tuner crowd" buying up CRZ's like hotcakes. I see alot of white-collar middle-aged commuters buying them in this area....

Yes yes, I know that GRM did the head-to-head test and the CRZ beat out the 20-year-old CRX in performance. But it could have been ALOT better...

Or maybe that's just my perception, who knows.

Keith wrote: Well, going back to the Miata (again!), it didn't outperform the RX7.

I hate to say it, because I love me spinning triangles, but the Miata outperformed the RX-7 in the only category that really matters to car companies: total units sold.

I've wanted a modern, light weight, fuel efficient, RWD car for years, myself. If things were differnt, I would have had a Miata by now, but I rolled a car on the Taconic Parkway way back in about 1990. It was ugly and I just simply can't bring myself to get a convertible (even with a roll bar) after that. It is a kind of mental block. I can't really even ride in convertibles without getting a bit weird.

I drove the 2.0 Genesys with a track pack when it hit the lot, and I almost bought one of those. Almost- the car was decent, but it just wasn't enough to get me to open my wallet. I am seriously hoping the Subie-yota is the car that is good enough to get me to do that.

I say that if Toyota and Subaru put out a car that both appeals to the mass market and can appeal to the enthusiast market with $2000 in bolt up upgrades (suspension, tires, ECU reflash, whatever) they won't just have a winner on their hands, they will have a game changer.

RexSeven wrote:

alfadriver wrote: In reply to Taiden: Are you planning on buying one new from Toyota or Subaru? which one?

I might buy one of them, which is why I'm following the Toyobaru's development so closely. Inside Line had a test drive of one of the prototype Toyota FT-86s and said it drove basically like a hardtop Miata: http://www.insideline.com/scion/fr-s/2013/2013-scion-fr-s-first-drive.html Obviously, it's a prototype and things may change, but I like the sound of it so far. I'll probably test-drive the Scion only unless a) the Subaru is the sportier car, b) is comparably priced, and c) is released around the same time.

Anyone else? I'm kind of curious since this is a much more exposed car than the Miata was, which had it's demand so high at the beginning that dealers were able to tack on a nice little profit.

There's a lot of talk about it, sort of like the Elise, but the price should be a lot more reasonable. And the "ability" should be more than the Elise- not as in how fast, but how useful the car can be. Like the Miata, I expect that this car will be a very good daily commuter on top of driving well. So it could easily be an only car for a person.

I almost think all of this buzz is leading up to a let down... just a gut feeling.

irish44j wrote: It's been known to happen... Toyota....3rd gen MR2 Honda....that new CRX wannabe abomination Subaru....SVX Mitsubishi....Eclipse

All of those that you list are cars that were not made as niche market cars, but heavily compromised for the general public. The MR-S used the 1ZZ instead of the 2ZZ (I assume for better fuel economy), the CR-Z is a hybrid first, the SVX only looked like a sports car - it didn't even come with the option of a manual transmission and was chalk full of luxury bits, and with the Eclipse, I assume you're talking about the 3rd and 4th gens, which were nothing more than Sebrings with different bodies. 1st and 2nd gen DSMs sold like hotcakes.

Now, if the FR-S/BRZ follows suit of the cars you've listed, then I agree, it's going to tank. Normals don't want anything like it in the first place, and if it's not a scalpel, enthusiasts will decry it as a sheep in wolf's clothing.

alfadriver wrote: Anyone else? I'm kind of curious since this is a much more exposed car than the Miata was, which had it's demand so high at the beginning that dealers were able to tack on a nice little profit. There's a lot of talk about it, sort of like the Elise, but the price *should* be a lot more reasonable. And the "ability" should be more than the Elise- not as in how fast, but how useful the car can be. Like the Miata, I expect that this car will be a very good daily commuter on top of driving well. So it could easily be an only car for a person. I almost think all of this buzz is leading up to a let down... just a gut feeling.

I like what the FT86 has become, but I haven't sat in it yet. I love the CR-Z's cockpit, and I would want something similar from the FT: Minimal gadgetry and cozy. I would be willing to buy one new in a few years once I land the hypothetical "real" job. My current car feels like it's about to get expensive, and I'm really not into working on cars, especially when financial input doesn't necessarily result in increased value.

In reply to alfadriver:

I'm personally hoping that the exposure will help upsell the car. The TC seems to sell pretty well for Scion and it is not at all the sports car that it appears to be. I expect it will be a good daily driver, and hopefully it catches on enough to drive a ton of aftermarket support like the Miata.

At the risk of sounding fanboyish, this car is pretty much the reason I've put off any new car buying decisions until I get to drive one. There's really hasn't been anything on the market since the 3000gt went away that does anything for me personally. Sort of felt like until the last 2 years everything was going the beige route. Maybe this will revive the RX-7/MKIV Supra feeling I used to get when I was growing up.

Is it ever going to get a proper name?

ReverendDexter wrote: It's odd to me that this crowd, the one that purports the Miata as the answer to everything, is so fixated on the numbers.

EErrrrrrr, right now, numbers are all we have, so we speculate.

Keith wrote: Comparing it to a used car isn't really legit. Sure, a used Miata might be $7,000 cheaper and this might hurt sales - but what about the oft-quoted $20k Z06 as well? You have to compare new against new, because that's what the buying (as opposed to the commenting) public will do.

New vs used isn't fair, but this is GRM, home of the dirtiest, hairiest, cheapest mother berkeleyers on the internet.