Toyman! said:In reply to SV reX :
I think what he is suggesting is there are times when grammar is important, like writing a magazine or a book. Other times it is less so, like writing a forum post.
I would agree with him.
I agree too.
But everyone needs to know when it's important to do it right, and be educated in how to do it. See my post above.
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to procainestart :
I am not familiar with the EM or EN dash, so I don't really understand.
That's good, I love learning new things.
A short dash is en dash (-) and a long dash (--) is an em dash. I do not know the keystrokes to do it on an iPhone. A lot of editing software does it automatically if you use a double small dash though.
SV reX said:In reply to Tom1200 :
So, proper grammar only matters to people who are pedantic, but the GRM staff is maintaining "quality " when they do it?
That's circular reasoning. You are saying there is a standard which defines "quality " (which implies that failure to do so would be "poor quality "), while also asserting that it doesn't matter.
You missed what I said; I said "lean towards being pedantic" that infers a sliding scale. The Oxford Comma debate is a good example of this.
Additionally proper grammar in and of itself doesn't equate to a quality magazine. One of the staff (I forgot who) mentioned maintaining a consistent style/design for the magazine. Design was in the thread title and hence my comments.
My final thought is Jack Kerouac's stream of consciousness writing proves you can write a pretty good novel and be outside the norms of what's considered proper.
SV reX said:One of my former jobs included the responsibility for hiring. I usually had to review about 400 resumes per month.
It made no difference what job someone was applying for. Poor grammar was a fast track to the discard pile, regardless of their skills or experience.
We didn't care how people talked or how educated they were. We cared that at times they needed to represent the company, and we wanted to know they could do it well (when they had to).
We usually had more than 100 applicants for every job opening. We didn't really need to consider anyone who didn't know how to act professionally when it mattered.
It's important.
A resume is very different than a forum post.
SV reX said:Poor grammar was a fast track to the discard pile, regardless of their skills or experience.
We cared that at times they needed to represent the company, and we wanted to know they could do it well (when they had to).
I'd be willing to bet you missed out on some very good candidates; but given the volume you processed I get why you would do it that way.
I'm likely making an assumption based on my dealing mostly in writing; when representing the organization we have every document proof read by someone other than the writer. This ensures we represent the organization well. Under this scenario the minor grammatical errors don't matter.
When of the best employees on my team speaks English as a second language; their grammar and speech is likely not at a standard you'd consider acceptable. Our end users and suppliers have nothing but glowing remarks about the work the employee does.
SV reX said:Toyman! said:In reply to SV reX :
I think what he is suggesting is there are times when grammar is important, like writing a magazine or a book. Other times it is less so, like writing a forum post.
I would agree with him.
I agree too.
But everyone needs to know when it's important to do it right, and be educated in how to do it. See my post above.
I would bet that the large majority of the general public doesn't care. A slightly smaller majority wouldn't know the purpose of a comma. Hell, half the time I don't know if they should be there or not.
Almost 60% of the US has a reading level below 6th grade. 28% of them haven't read a single book in the last 12 months. As long as they can get a text out to their bae, they could not care less.
I was expecting to get some comments on this one, but, clearly, we struck a nerve with quite a few of you. 
Tom1200 said:SV reX said:Poor grammar was a fast track to the discard pile, regardless of their skills or experience.
We cared that at times they needed to represent the company, and we wanted to know they could do it well (when they had to).
I'd be willing to bet you missed out on some very good candidates; but given the volume you processed I get why you would do it that way.
I'm likely making an assumption based on my dealing mostly in writing; when representing the organization we have every document proof read by someone other than the writer. This ensures we represent the organization well. Under this scenario the minor grammatical errors don't matter.
When of the best employees on my team speaks English as a second language; their grammar and speech is likely not at a standard you'd consider acceptable. Our end users and suppliers have nothing but glowing remarks about the work the employee does.
Many of our writers are ESL and located in many different countries around the world.
They are still expected to follow US grammar/spelling, they don't get hired if they can't.
In reply to z31maniac :
Like I said in my reply to Sv reX I get why a company would do this.
I should've been more clear; I'm willing to overlook some rough edges if the person has mad skills.
Toyman! said:Almost 60% of the US has a reading level below 6th grade. 28% of them haven't read a single book in the last 12 months. As long as they can get a text out to their bae, they could not care less.
Which in no way means that it is not important.
Ms Young,
I will worry about I, me, and myself when GRM stops splitting the infinitive. That is fingernails on blackboards to me. I'm donning the firesuit...
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to procainestart :
I am not familiar with the EM or EN dash, so I don't really understand.
That's good, I love learning new things.
En and em dashes are named after the length of the letters N and M, because they're the same length:
There's also a minus sign character. :-)
@Sarah--thanks! BTW, if you haven't read Between You & Me: Confessions of a Comma Queen, by Mary Norris, I think you'll dig it, that is, I think you'll enjoy it, not extract it from the ground with a shovel. (See what I did there? )
Duke said:Toyman! said:Almost 60% of the US has a reading level below 6th grade. 28% of them haven't read a single book in the last 12 months. As long as they can get a text out to their bae, they could not care less.
Which in no way means that it is not important.
It's not important to them. They don't care if it's important to anyone else.
Duke said:Toyman! said:Almost 60% of the US has a reading level below 6th grade. 28% of them haven't read a single book in the last 12 months. As long as they can get a text out to their bae, they could not care less.
Which in no way means that it is not important.
I don't understand the comment about books. I have read exactly 1 book in the last 6+ years. Getting a philosophy minor in college and the sheer amount of reading you have to do kind of ruined reading for pleasure. Now being a professional writer for the last 16 years, hell I barely even read magazines anymore.
In reply to z31maniac :
My comment was mostly in response to the statement that 60% of the US couldn't care less about grammar. Whether they care or not is irrelevant - grammar is still important.
But the point stands. Reading is important because it increases your chances of learning something new, widens your world view, and improves your vocabulary, comprehension, and communication skills.
Probably half of my workload is written communication.
I always have a book going. I read a couple books a month. I read for pleasure at least 20 minutes a day; longer if I have the time. Sometimes fiction, sometimes not.
Toyman! said:Duke said:Toyman! said:Almost 60% of the US has a reading level below 6th grade. 28% of them haven't read a single book in the last 12 months. As long as they can get a text out to their bae, they could not care less.
Which in no way means that it is not important.
It's not important to them. They don't care if it's important to anyone else.
It's important to them when it comes time to write a resume, whether they think it's important or not.
I have read thousands of poorly written resumes whose owners are not getting the opportunity to interview for a job ONLY because they failed to ask someone to proofread it for them.
They don't have to know grammar. They have to know grammar is important.
In reply to SV reX :
If you aren't hiring construction workers because of their grammar, you are missing out on some of the best and hardest working people out there.
Not to mention that in this day and age, if they can see lightning and hear thunder, they are hired for the simple fact that no one has enough staff right now, including me.
I wouldn't care less if they started every sentence with a comma as long as they can do the job, know how to take a shower, and are capable of showing up for work sober and on time. I'm not hiring them for their writing skills.
In reply to Toyman! :
It wasn't construction workers.
I agree. There are lots of great workers who don't know grammar.
That doesn't change what the company hiring guidelines are.
My job was reviewing the resumes in accordance with the hiring practices. And a LOT of people missed great opportunities because they didn't try harder with the grammar.
It doesn't matter if you and I agree with it or like it. It's still a reality.
edit: ...and they NEVER lacked for skilled workers. They just happened to get the skilled workers who could also present a decently written resume.
Toyman! said:Duke said:Toyman! said:Almost 60% of the US has a reading level below 6th grade. 28% of them haven't read a single book in the last 12 months. As long as they can get a text out to their bae, they could not care less.
Which in no way means that it is not important.
It's not important to them. They don't care if it's important to anyone else.
I understand. That does not change my point.
I am in no way saying we must all use perfect college-educated grammar at all times.
I am not saying those who can't are inferior.
I'm saying that it is important to be able to communicate clearly, in both verbal and written forms, whether people care about it or not.
It is in their own best interest to be understandable and persuasive.
In reply to Duke :
I must have missed his original post, just saw yours so quoted it. Sure reading does those things, but I don't derive much, if any, enjoyment out of it anymore. Even though I have a couple of books here I'd like to read.
In reply to SV reX :
From a personal standpoint; I always have my stuff proof read. For my recent promotion I had to update my resume and I had my wife proof read it.
On an off-topic note I don't know if you are still doing hiring but it's currently an employees market; we now have to make some allowances.
Back to the the topic; proof reading and grammar do speak to a level of conscientiousness and based on the replies here it does matter to a lot of people.
Jerry From LA said:Ms Young,
I will worry about I, me, and myself when GRM stops splitting the infinitive. That is fingernails on blackboards to me. I'm donning the firesuit...
That is one grammar rule I frequently break in the name of readability. I understand that it's wrong, and I won't flame you for calling it out.
But like ending a sentence with a preposition, avoiding a split infinitive often seems like the cure is worse than the disease.
Duke said:Toyman! said:Duke said:Toyman! said:Almost 60% of the US has a reading level below 6th grade. 28% of them haven't read a single book in the last 12 months. As long as they can get a text out to their bae, they could not care less.
Which in no way means that it is not important.
It's not important to them. They don't care if it's important to anyone else.
I understand. That does not change my point.
I am in no way saying we must all use perfect college-educated grammar at all times.
I am not saying those who can't are inferior.
I'm saying that it is important to be able to communicate clearly, in both verbal and written forms, whether people care about it or not.
It is in their own best interest to be understandable and persuasive.
Be it in their best interest or not, they don't care what the rest of the world thinks. If they did, we wouldn't be having this discussion. While it bothers you and others, they don't even think about it.
In reply to Toyman! :
I understand that. Which goes back to my orginal point that simply not caring does not render it unimportant.
But there isn't much point in belaboring this bit any further, so I'll leave it there.
Duke said:Jerry From LA said:Ms Young,
I will worry about I, me, and myself when GRM stops splitting the infinitive. That is fingernails on blackboards to me. I'm donning the firesuit...
That is one grammar rule I frequently break in the name of readability. I understand that it's wrong, and I won't flame you for calling it out.
But like ending a sentence with a preposition, avoiding a split infinitive often seems like the cure is worse than the disease.
The Chicago Manual of Style agrees since the 1983 edition, there is nothing wrong with a split infinitive. For the reason you mentioned, the cure is often worse than the disease in this case.
https://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/qanda/data/faq/topics/SplitInfinitives/faq0001.html
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