Dr. Hess wrote: Speaking of concussions, how's your head doing these days, FT?
Still holding my eyeballs in place, so that's a good thing!
'Tis what it 'tis. A little speech impediment, reduced spatial reasoning, and "cog fog" still can roll in sometimes.
So I work with a little closer supervision, am a little quicker to call it quits, and laugh at it all.
chuckles wrote: In reply to OHSCrifle: Soccer was in the news in this regard recently. Immediate advice is to stop letting children head the ball.
I don't think it's the ball that is causing injury in youth soccer - my son plays on a pretty high level travel team so I get to watch a lot of it played at high intensity. For the most part soccer players live long and prosper even at the pro level. I could be wrong here - but it's nowhere near the level of force or frequency that is routine in football and there are a lot of ex soccer players worldwide. Like hundreds of thousands. It's the most popular game on earth.
Most of the head injuries I've seen are from when two people try to head the ball at the same time. The sound of two skulls colliding is sickening and a head wound bleeds like a mofo. Those are serious impacts with concussions. I cringe everytime I see two kids going after a corner kick.
Some of the kids are starting to wear neoprene headbands with impact protection but it's optional - and of dubious value anyway. The potential for them to be pure snake oil is pretty high. Soccer moms will buy any accessory they can get their mitts on as long as it comes in fashionable colors and safety sells.
I agree Huck about the heads bonking together, my son also plays soccer. But I'm not sure I'd fully give heading the ball itself a blanket pass. My son complains about it joggling his head if the ball is over inflated, and I've seen a few of the kids wobbling after a good heading.
In reply to foxtrapper:
You could be right - I'm just working off of the theory that with all of the millions of kids playing the game all over the world - orders of magnitude greater than American Football... and from a very young age all the way to the pros... if it was an issue it would be much more prevalent given the larger group of players.
Granted this falls under more "my opinion" than science. I'm certainly interested in protecting my own son's thinker so some study should probably be done. Preferably by independent scientists using grant money so not funded by Nike.
In reply to Huckleberry:
This study ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10823540) compared acceleration/g forces of soccer ball head impacts vs collisions in other sports like football/hockey and found that peak acceleration from heading a soccer ball was 54G, while peak acceleration for inside a football helmet was 29.2G and hockey was 35G.
It seems like football and hockey helmet collisions probably happen more frequently than heading a soccer ball once or twice a game, but the helmets used in other sports might deflect some of the force enough to lessen the damage.
I wouldn't say heading a ball is something that happens only once or twice a game. Throughout a typical soccer game, my boy might head the ball a good half dozen times. Some of the kids it's upwards of 20 times in a game.
No attempt to refute the report you linked. Just that I'd like to point out that those values were measurements of acceleration experienced by the helmet, not the head.
A soccer ball is much lighter than most of the other impact objects and the impact is in a direction where your head is better supported / prevented from moving, so it's going to be less likely to cause a significant, rapid change in the course of your head's movement than smacking a roll cage or something. That makes for a lot less brain slosh.
In reply to rslifkin:
That is true - a lot of the energy transfer moves the ball, not the head so the brain and head remain in the same acceleration with regard to each other. It isn't the same as someone standing there and having the ball smash into them - they are directing the energy into the ball and pushing thru the space where it was. When two football helmets collide or a helmet smacks a roll cage tube the acceleration forces are directed onto the skull and the goo inside sloshes about because those have a mass equal or greater than the projectile (head).
Dr. Hess wrote: Personally, uh, professionally in a previous profession, I think that boxing should be "highly discouraged." Two men beating each other until one has brain damage is not something that people should be encouraged to participate in or watch.
I feel similarly about football. I'll defend hockey--it is a contact sport, not a collision sport--but football seems nuts to me. And my FIL, BIL, and brother all played college football.
STM317 wrote: In reply to Huckleberry: This study ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10823540) compared acceleration/g forces of soccer ball head impacts vs collisions in other sports like football/hockey and found that peak acceleration from heading a soccer ball was 54G, while peak acceleration for inside a football helmet was 29.2G and hockey was 35G. It seems like football and hockey helmet collisions probably happen more frequently than heading a soccer ball once or twice a game, but the helmets used in other sports might deflect some of the force enough to lessen the damage.
Not speaking for football, since I'm not sure on it--seems like there is a lot of head to head for players on the line. But for hockey, you're taught not to lead with your head in a check. A head-butt is worth 30 days suspension. A check delivered to the head is worth 2+10 minutes, 5 minutes+game, or 30 day suspension. A check from behind that results in the player going head first into the boards is 5+game or 30 day suspension. You just don't see it all that much. I played at a relatively high level (HS varsity) and the 1 concussion I had was in a no-contact rat hockey with no one around me. I was making a tight turn and my edge gave out, hit my shoulder first and then my head whip-lashed into the ice.
Three pages in and no mention of TBI. I see a lot of them at work and it's depressing to see someone with an entirely new personality because they were too close to a kaBoom.
I suppose I've done well on the head injury front, no LOC injuries and "bell ringing" events are very few.
? Concussion is a TBI, and the thread is substantially about the brain damage that results from various impacts. So I disagree that there is no mention of them in this thread.
USYSL is banning kids 12 and under from heading the ball, starting with the 2016-17 fall season. I think this is a mistake. My son is 13 and plays goalkeeper and left forward for a travel soccer team. He has been concussed by being kneed in the head, and I have seen other players concussed by colliding with the goal posts, other players, or even the ground, but I have never seen a player injured by heading a soccer ball.
Maybe a better solution would be to require all players (not just goalkeepers) to wear this sort of headgear: https://www.keeperstop.com/canterbury_club_plus_headguard-p407/
In reply to captdownshift:
You're absolutely right that it's good until it isn't. I was only making the point that when we're healthy we tend to worry about health a long way off, which unsurprisingly leads too many people into making poor decisions about today. It's hard for a lot of people (including me to be honest) to take care of today without a major personal health scare.
foxtrapper wrote: ? Concussion is a TBI, and the thread is substantially about the brain damage that results from various impacts. So I disagree that there is no mention of them in this thread.
Sorry, I meant the TBI incurred in a combat zone when a buried charge of C-4 blows up too close for comfort causing you to bleed from your eyes and ears.
In reply to foxtrapper:
Glad you're doing OK. Have you read The Dead Zone (Steven King)? It was one of his better books.
In reply to bluebarchetta:
I agree the no-header rule is a bit of an over-reaction. I asst coach my daughter's U12 rec team, and the injuries we see are all from player to player or player to ground contact; same as when I played back in the early 15th century.
My 16 y/o son has been playing football since he was 7, mainly on the line. He's had two concussions, and went about a month without being able to read, watch TV, or play video games. It was not a fun month 
. Sure, son, just sit around in the dark and stare at the walls, but don't concentrate...
He's made the tough decision that he's done with football . He made the surprisingly mature decision that what remains of his noggin is more important than the game. We watched Concussion over the winter; I think the movie scared the crap out of him.
To me what is scary is that football which was once a seasonal sport between baseball/track and football now has become almost a year round pursuit at the high school level. If they are not practicing they are working out. The kids playing today are bigger, stronger and pretty much trained by some coaches and the media to put a a hurt on someone if they can blocking or tackling. The problem with concussions is they really never go away completely and are cumulative so even several minor concussions can have a very lasting effect as these kids get older.
Interesting the talk of heavy deceleration being related to head trauma.
Auto racing is my one serious risk, and I can deal with it if I feel like any brain trauma is limited to relatively rare freak occurences, i.e. accidents, but my perspective is a little different if brain trauma occurs as a matter of course, as some people seem to be suggesting it does in heavy deceleration. Would like to hear more about that.
Concerns about head trauma in auto racing is one of the reasons I've gravitated towards street car racing, primarily in the form of autocross, rather than the more hardcore karting. Even with the limited experience I've had at some of the local karting tracks, it seems like an activity full of head injuries. Almost every time I go I end up being shaken about, either from direct hits from terrible drivers, or from bumpy road surface.
Acquiring concussions is rather difficult when planted in front of a computer screen, so the number I had growing up is thankfully limited. Last one was being elbowed in the head during a casual basketball game.
In reply to mazdeuce:
Sadly the perspective is rarely gained until damage is done or some degree of inability is had. Although judging from your response in the flip side of racing thread, you have perspective of risk assessment on track.
KyAllroad wrote: Sorry, I meant the TBI incurred in a combat zone when a buried charge of C-4 blows up too close for comfort causing you to bleed from your eyes and ears.
Well, the military doesn't have an exclusive on them. Doesn't take much to cause ear bleeding, and that doesn't directly correlate to a TBI anyhow.
We could also go off into limb removal, but really it's not germane to the subject.
And before you start jumping up and down about military service, you might want to consider how many vets and even combat vets are in this thread.
Dr. Hess wrote: Have you read The Dead Zone (Steven King)? It was one of his better books.
Yes indeed. That was one of my first reads of his works.
Sadly, I was not blessed with a coma or the gift of sight. Then again, considering how it went in the story, I think I'm glad I wasn't.
It's sad to hear about these types of situations. To me, there is no question at all that impacts from things like racing accidents, NFL hits, heading a ball in soccer, can lead to long term issues when done repeatedly over an extended time. It's fantastic that more focus is being placed on it and great efforts undertaken to reduce risk. Both of my boys play youth football and have for years. I support them playing and I will say the coaches preach and preach about heads up football. The kids get in all kinds of trouble if they lead with their heads.
I will say that while all of this is wonderful, I think to some degree it's being overblown. Some stories and reports would have you believe that if you participate in sports or get hit in the head by a water balloon you could be injured for life (OK, I'm exaggerating, but you get my point). As I said, I totally agree there is a direct connection to repeated massive blows to the head and long term issues. At the same time, it's also very possible people will have long term memory and other cognitive function issues without blows to the head. To my knowledge, I've had minimal...if any...concussions in my lifetime. My memory, both long term and short term, is really poor. Just the way I am.
I also find it mind boggling...pardon the pun...that head injuries in the NFL is the subject of Hollywood movies, massive lawsuits and incredible public outrage, yet MMA is being promoted and is a growing sport. Football is a game. MMA is nothing more than legalized assault, where blows to the unprotected head are encouraged and glorified.
Though as a mild counter point, when boxing is done bare knuckled, the bouts last far longer, and head blows are much lighter. Add gloves and the bouts are shorter and head blow trauma increases. The gloves serve to protect the hands and become essentially clubs.
The same is likely for MMA fighting, even with kicks. A bare footed kick to the head hurts the foot, just as it would hurt the hand.
Now if MMA ever goes to gloves and boots, that will likely result in an increase in trauma, including to the brain.
In reply to Klayfish:
I agree with a lot of what you're saying to some extent. The chicken little rhetoric has gone a bit over the top, in my relatively uninformed opinion, at least as it pertains to playing football at the amateur high school/college level. Plenty of people have been playing the game for over a century and the vast majority have turned out just fine. If football is what you love doing and are passionate about, I don't think you should be discouraged from playing the game.
I do, however, think that knowing when to walk away is crucial, and that the threshold at which that should become a serious consideration is much lower than previously thought. A female friend of mine used to date this guy who played football up through college and in the course of playing sustained something like a double digit number of concussions (most of which, fwiw, were never diagnosed or reported because he didn't want to be kept from playing.) While I don't think he was exactly a rocket surgeon in the first place, there's no doubt in my mind he's suffered some serious consequences as a result. Terrible short term memory, constant light sensitivity (he's ALWAYS wearing sunglasses), and headaches when he sneezes are just a few of the things I've observed or he's told me about. All this at less than 30 years old.
Having played three years of rugby in high school and one in college, I think there is a LOT that football could borrow from that game to improve safety. While rugby has a reputation for savage brutality, the tackling is actually highly regulated. Hits are only legal between the knees and shoulders, effectively outlawing direct and intentional blows to the head. Furthermore, one cannot pick up the opposing player off his feet when making a tackle, which theoretically eliminates the possibility of picking guys up and pile driving them into the ground head first. One of the most fundamental differences in tackling between the sports is placement of the players head when making a tackle - "inside" in football (i.e. placing it into the opposing players path of travel to ensure solid contact of the shoulder) vs "outside" in rugby (i.e. behind the path of travel to protect the head/neck.) And lastly, while this may seem counter intuitive, I think reducing the amount of padding would reduce injuries. The heaviest padding a football player wears is designed not to protect them in the event of an opponent initiating contact, but rather to pad the blow of contact to the opponent. This therefore serves to effectively weaponize the player's body to an extent, allowing them to deliver harder blows than would otherwise be possible without the padding.
Wow, interesting debate springing from my original post. I bet there is either under way, or will be in the next few years a big research project looking at all sports and activities to try and identify the long term effects on head injuries, concussions and long term impairment and/or dementia/Alzheimer’s. Something that say you end up with a 1 in 10,000,000 chance of long term permanent damage for every hour of football or American football. Or 1,000,000 for every hour of track time in a car with multipliers for starting young (when still forming) or continuing late in life when the body is less able to cope with injury.
Now I’ll admit my next paragraph will probably not sit well with some people, but I think our modern diet has a lot to do with it as well. Look at the massive increase in sugar (Watch ‘the sugar film’ on Netflix if you have it) consumption and how wheat has changed over the last 50 years with cross breading to increase yield. Rates of type II Diabetes are going up (some would say) exponentially and so is Dementia/Alzheimer’s which many people are now calling type III Diabetes.
I wonder about my own father who passed last year at 80, but was increasingly affect by memory loss then dementia from 70 onwards. On one hand he was a type II diabetic from his mid-60’s on, on the other he had four serious knocks to his head. First a rugby game in high school where he was hit on the head and woke up in hospital three days later, second being thrown from the back of a Land Rover in the Air Force, third being hit by the end of a pressurized airline that came loose in a garage and fourth being pushed off a 50’ embankment by a semi in a Marina in the 70’s. Was it the diabetes that did him in, the concussions or probably a combination of them all.
I must admit, it all makes me less likely to go back to track driving, although I still snowboard, but I’ve worn a helmet for the last six years or so to do that.
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