SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:With all due respect, the OP never even said he was gonna race. This could be a street car with an ill-fitting roll bar. (Which we would all agree is a E36 M3ty idea)
From the OP'soriginal post "I'm not doing any wheel to wheel competitive racing, just hpde."
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/whats-the-deal-with-harnesses-and-not-having-a-cag/180222/page1/
HPDE is on the track just like a race, The terrain going off is the same The car rolling is the same
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:BoxheadTim (Forum Supporter) said:Turn 11 a Laguna is not the place to find out if your welds are good and how well the discount parts are working.
11 is a fairly slow corner, perhaps you mean 6 or 9? :)
Well, with my usual geriatric hamster powered vehicles, I didn't really have to lift or brake much between the Corkscrew and turn 11. Which means that I usually didn't want to find out if my fabricobbled big brake kit was OK and thus not needed to test my rollbar as a result. For some reason that wall with the barely existing runoff left an impression (not on the car...).
Turn 6 was more one of those corners where I felt like I needed to get out the car and push 
.
As for DIY fabrication, it depends a lot on your skill level. Mine is terrible so I outsource all the safety-critical stuff to a pro but those pros all started somewhere, right? If Tadope has done a bunch of other welding/etc and is comfortable with the idea that he's trusting his life to his skill, then starting with a fairly simple roll bar on his own car doesn't seem unreasonable.
But yes, at a minimum it sounds like there's a bunch of homework to be done on materials, techniques, requirements, etc.
Yep, nothing wrong with doing the fab work yourself if you're a decent welder and fabricator. As the skill level of the OP is unknown at this point, I hesitate to suggest that being a good idea as a potential first fabrication project.
frenchyd said:Yes it's a skill. When you hire that skill done you've lost the opportunity to learn. We complain that so few go into construction trades but fail to teach and demonstrate children ourselves.
The problem I have with that advice is that unless the OP has enough experience welding and bending tubes, it might cut short all the other learning opportunities.
$1000 here a $1000 there, pretty soon you're talking real money.
In the end this is GRASS ROOTS MOTORSPORTS. not hire the pros motorsports.
Motorsports always requires another few grand you don't have. But you need to know where to economise and where to hold the nose and pay the man.
I can weld - although my skills are, err, rusty - but if I want a rollbar for a Miata, I just call Blackbird Fabworx even though they're one of the more expensive suppliers. But their stuff is well made and fits.
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:With all due respect, the OP never even said he was gonna race. This could be a street car with an ill-fitting roll bar. (Which we would all agree is a E36 M3ty idea)
We are all making a ton of assumptions.
Frenchy, yes I agree that it's great to learn new skills. But before we go spouting off on that kind of stuff, we really should ask a few more questions. The OP apparently doesn't know how to identify the right type or size of tubing, has no knowledge of plate sizes, diagonal bar placement, attachment guidelines, tubing wall thickness, inspection holes, or frankly anything. Why assume he knows how to weld (or even has a welder)?
If this is his first attempt at welding, it could cost a LOT more than having a pro do it. Plus, it might never pass a tech inspection.
I love encouraging people to try new things (and you are pretty good at it), but sometimes it's better to ask questions and listen then to try to prove how much we know. Ask some questions first before offering advice.
LeMons and Champ Car have about the lowest cost entry to wheel to wheel racing. Last time I checked their site racers were telling between $5500 & $6500 was the cost of the car, starting with a $500 junker.
When I did the calculation that's in the neighborhood I estimated. Maybe a little higher because some things that are optional really aren't if you know what I mean.
Now a HPDE car is going to be less than half of that but it's a good start. I don't know what the cross over rate is. 10%? If it could be double that I think that would be a good thing, wouldn't it?
Now bitting off a $5-6k chunk to get your toes wet is a big ask. But starting at a fraction of that number with probably your daily driver is a good way to get your toes wet.
So I'm going to encourage people to make the steps along the way. Some guy wants to put the start of a roll cage in his HPDE car? Go for it. Encourage. It's better than nothing and it's the start. Decals and numbers? Sure! Upgraded this and that? You bet.
The more he hangs around the more he will learn. He might even learn the difference between a cage and a bar.
cfvwtuner said:Neither of those are designed for your Audi TT. Who do you have that can weld it correctly/safely?
A cage isnt something that you just want to try doing.
Stop trying to do everything the cheapest way possible, it wont make for a safe or enjoyable car, and you will regret most of the choices you have made
Bro. I'm not doing this blindly. These are all questions to figure out how to get this done cheaply and effectively. You respond to my questions as though they are "demands" as far as how to do things. I'm asking questions because i'm looking for answers. If you're answering "THOSE DON'T WORK" then great!! That's what i'm looking to hear. But just be truthful and honest. But trying to get me to stop posting my questions is not right.
Slippery (Forum Supporter) said:I would refer back to this thread and re read it about 5 times ...
This is a continuation from that thread. That thread was great. Now I know that I need an actual cage. So that's what i'm shopping for.
This thread is about how to get the cage done.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:Please, there is no such thing as a "half cage". That is a rollbar.
Well that's what the products are called, so, whatever. I'm just shopping for a rollbar that sits behind the front seats only.
Also just FYI, I won't be welding any myself. I'll have someone else do it.
Sounds like piecing together a bar is going to be too iffy and hassled.
I think what I need is a kit that is perfectly cut and sized for my car.
then I can just take it to my welder and he doesn't have to do any fabbing. Just weld up what the kit comes with. Good to go.
Only think I would do is add more beefing up to the bottom mounts. After seeing that mustang where the rollbar was plenty strong but
then busted through the floor !!!
BoxheadTim (Forum Supporter) said:frenchyd said:Yes it's a skill. When you hire that skill done you've lost the opportunity to learn. We complain that so few go into construction trades but fail to teach and demonstrate children ourselves.
The problem I have with that advice is that unless the OP has enough experience welding and bending tubes, it might cut short all the other learning opportunities.
$1000 here a $1000 there, pretty soon you're talking real money.
In the end this is GRASS ROOTS MOTORSPORTS. not hire the pros motorsports.Motorsports always requires another few grand you don't have. But you need to know where to economise and where to hold the nose and pay the man.
I can weld - although my skills are, err, rusty - but if I want a rollbar for a Miata, I just call Blackbird Fabworx even though they're one of the more expensive suppliers. But their stuff is well made and fits.
I'm glad you can do that, buy the best, most expensive. Something designed to be legal wheel to wheel.
I'm not sure why you are on GRM though. A magazine written for the modest income DIY type of person. Maybe like me you're here to share your experience and knowledge with entry level people? Encourage them to try, maybe succeed maybe fail but then try again?
He wants to take the next step towards a more serious effort? I think encouragement is in order.
You may disagree. That's OK. We don't have to agree on everything.
In reply to Tadope :
Don't be discouraged by the negativity of some people. I think you're on the right track.
Too many people think that a complete dedicated race car is required to have some fun racing. Nothing is further from the truth
I still have my stone stock MGTD. That I can race in Group 1. No roll cage, no roll bar, seat belt through the plywood floor, no harness, no crotch strap no HANS device. Not saying it's safe. But I love doing it.
We race as hard as our cars will go.
In England they are racing 100+ year old cars without even the seatbelts. Some of those old crocks have Airplane motors making 300+ horsepower. With flames belching out the exhaust stubs. On 2 maybe three inches of very hard rubber as the only contact with the ground.
Look at Goodwood racing for examples. It's awesome.
Tadope said:Also just FYI, I won't be welding any myself. I'll have someone else do it.
Sounds like piecing together a bar is going to be too iffy and hassled.
I think what I need is a kit that is perfectly cut and sized for my car.
then I can just take it to my welder and he doesn't have to do any fabbing. Just weld up what the kit comes with. Good to go.
Only think I would do is add more beefing up to the bottom mounts. After seeing that mustang where the rollbar was plenty strong but
then busted through the floor !!!
You are on the right track. I'd look into Roll Cage Components as suggested on the previous page. I decided to buy my own bender but they were going to be my next choice.
To the OP, where are you located? Someone may have a suggestion on who you can talk to or where you can bring it in your area to discuss having a rollbar fabricated specific to your needs.
This is an Audi tt, correct?
If so, there should be a bulkhead behind the front seat iirc. The main hoop should sit on this. It will give more strength, and have little chance of punching through the floor.
Good luck! We are all counting on you!
wvumtnbkr said:This is an Audi tt, correct?
If so, there should be a bulkhead behind the front seat iirc. The main hoop should sit on this. It will give more strength, and have little chance of punching through the floor.
Good luck! We are all counting on you!
yes mk1 audi TT 2001. Yes, there are a few spots like that with significant reinforcement.
That's what I was hinting at in the original post. I could definitely (even without any rollcage skills) find the strongest spots to mount the rollbar all on my own.
And I would just copy the tubing lines from other existing models. Then have someone else weld it all up.
I was only wondering if I was missing something that might cause danger.
Tadope said:wvumtnbkr said:This is an Audi tt, correct?
If so, there should be a bulkhead behind the front seat iirc. The main hoop should sit on this. It will give more strength, and have little chance of punching through the floor.
Good luck! We are all counting on you!
yes mk1 audi TT 2001. Yes, there are a few spots like that with significant reinforcement.
That's what I was hinting at in the original post. I could definitely (even without any rollcage skills) find the strongest spots to mount the rollbar all on my own.
And I would just copy the tubing lines from other existing models. Then have someone else weld it all up.
I was only wondering if I was missing something that might cause danger.
Take all of the interior out so it fits very tightly against the inside shell of the car. It will also help so that there is more access to the tubes to be welded. It will also help so you don't catch the car on fire.
Try to go to where the suspension loads are carried in the rear of the car. That area is usually very strong. Should be like a 45 degree angle on the backstays.
In reply to Tadope :
Always try to imagine what an accident will be. Side impact is most likely. Everybody worries about roll over but that's rare. If you street drive it remember you won't have that helmet to protect you so in a very real sense a rollcage is more dangerous on the street. A Roll bar not so much because it's behind you and only a rear end collision puts you at greater risk.
At a bare minimum pad the heck out of the bars.
Tadope said:Pete. (l33t FS) said:Please, there is no such thing as a "half cage". That is a rollbar.
Well that's what the products are called, so, whatever. I'm just shopping for a rollbar that sits behind the front seats only.
I'd ignore anyone calling a rollbar a "half cage". They either have no idea what they are doing or they are selling you a line. Either way, they are untrustworthy for if you wish to purchase a safety system from them.
Most rollbars are 4 point rollbars. A rollbar that has stringers going forward to the A pillar is a six point rollbar.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:I'd ignore anyone calling a rollbar a "half cage". They either have no idea what they are doing or they are selling you a line. Either way, they are untrustworthy for if you wish to purchase a safety system from them.
I have to disagree with this. "half cage" is a pretty widespread term these days, I hear it used a lot by people who definitely know what they're doing.
To answer the original question: Yes, you can absolutely make a safe cage yourself from a kit. I built the cage in our yellow Miata (RIP) and it successfully protected our driver from one of the hardest hits I've ever seen in Lemons. I'd never built a cage before, just a few roll bars, and I was 17? I think when I built this one.
However, I'd been welding since I was a little kid, and had the benefit of 1000 other caged Miatas on the internet to copy. It was still one of the hardest things I'd ever done at that point.
If you're going to pay somebody to do the welding anyway, don't waste the money or sign up for the compromises that come with a pre-bent cage. Take it to a race shop and ask for a "four-point roll bar for [Organization] HPDE". Those are the magic words to get the right thing. Make sure your race seat is mounted before you drop the car off, as that will influence the bar's placement.
I would suggest having the bar welded in, as that's easier/cheaper and should be safer. Plus, then you'll be able to keep it and add the forward points to turn it into a cage if you decide to jump to wheel to wheel racing.
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/project-cars/1992-yellow-mazda-miata/our-miata-gets-smashed/
Oh and sorry if I missed it but post your location and somebody can probably make a suggestion for where to take the car.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:Pete. (l33t FS) said:I'd ignore anyone calling a rollbar a "half cage". They either have no idea what they are doing or they are selling you a line. Either way, they are untrustworthy for if you wish to purchase a safety system from them.
I have to disagree with this. "half cage" is a pretty widespread term these days, I hear it used a lot by people who definitely know what they're doing.
Really? Do any sanctioning bodies call them that? (Genuinely asking for information)
That is the key thing. What a sanctioning body with a vested interest in not having to scoop your broken body out of a wreck and into a bag calls it, is more important than what MonkeyBarz calls it.
Kind of like the "show bars" for trucks. They aren't called roll bars for a reason.
Thanks all. i'm located in the SF bay area!
Tom Suddard said:Oh and sorry if I missed it but post your location and somebody can probably make a suggestion for where to take the car.
We have been through this ...
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