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Jerry From LA
Jerry From LA Reader
12/9/08 11:06 a.m.

Mr vito82:

Count me in as an original from the Class of '84. My screen name dates back to the original BB when Jerry Stein and I both logged in as "Jerry." I'm Jerry From LA as opposed to Jerry Stein (jstein77) from Fl. Turns out we both changed our screen names simultaneously without asking each other, probably because it was the polite thing to do.

That's the way it was back then. This BB and the magazine it represents get their flavor from the tone set by the Suddards from the very first issue. Joe Gearin was right about our ages. I was 28 years old and pushing hard to make it in my business. There was no extra money around so owning a FIAT 124 Spider meant I wrenched it too. Had a parts car on blocks in the back yard and everything. My landlord was so pleased.

Now come the Suddards with the insane idea of writing a magazine about doing more with what you have and, oh by the way, going up against juggernauts like Petersen Publishing and the Ziff-Davis Group with multiple titles and huge marketing machines. The Suddards bucked huge odds like me so the aura around the endeavor was just as enticing to me as the magazine itself.

Do you know how hard it is to sell a magazine concept about people with no money and the crappy cars they love? Try selling ad space around that. Do you think all the little businesses catering to our crowd pay huge money for ad space? Why do you think the magazine got bigger? Because lots of little ads meant lots of pages. Safe-T-Quip is not a huge sponsor. Budweiser and Miller are huge sponsors. You won't hear it from Tim or Margie but these guys were pushed to the brink of bankruptcy a couple of times at least.

The Suddards are firmly entrenched in the middle class. I would bet they clear less than someone like Thomas L. Bryant at Road & Track and they own two magazines. You won't see Thomas L. Bryant sitting behind a booth selling subscriptions in the rain at a vintage race in Pittsburgh.

Offers like the long-term Bimmer loan are important to those of us here from the beginning because it means Motorsports Marketing is an established player whose opinions are important to a company's marketing strategy. It means our subset of the automotive hobby has some clout. We played a small part in the Suddard's success. This is our thing too. The kids at GRM get to drive that Bimmer because we all worked for it and we want them to enjoy it. Oh, and they get to mod it up a little too, no questions asked. Then we get to steal the ideas. If the penalty for that is writing about it in the magazine, so be it. Compromising is part of the deal to live the life you want.

What is a sports car? What is a hot rod? What is grassroots? People argue back and forth about the definitions all the time. Which is why you'll get a pass from most people on that part of your post. But taking a cheap shot at someone for being ballsy enough to start a magazine that had no shot, industrious enough to see it through 25 years and smart enough to make deals ensuring its long-term survival?

That's way past douche-y. that's....that's...what is the word I'm looking for here?

OK, I have to drive my wife to work so I can have her car while I work on my latest POS. I'll take this up later.

John Brown
John Brown GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
12/9/08 11:30 a.m.

Did the girlfriend ever get her masters?

Salanis
Salanis SuperDork
12/9/08 11:52 a.m.

I've been a fan of the magazine for a while, and I do enjoy it usually, although lately I must admit I've been finding some issues hit or miss.

My chief complaint about the magazine would have to be Tim Suddard's recent articles where he brags about the car that I wish was mine.

I mean BMWs in Grassroots Motorsports magazine can be viewed as being iffy, since people only buy high-end marques to show off how much better they are than everyone else.

But a guy who works his ass off for 25 years to build up a magazine from scratch into a well respected publication, and then gets a chance to enjoy some modicum of success is just not cool. Having the owner write his own editorials because he doesn't have a team of editors to do it for him is nauseating, and it just seems like he's trying to make us feel that he should be proud of his hard work paying off materially.

I mean fine bust your ass to build a magazine, earn some money, buy a cool car! Maybe he does deserve it, it is a good magazine. But making a car that I wish I were personally able to afford into a Project Car?? WTF is up with that?? And then go on about how a the nice, not inexpensive, but ultimately practical car can be made to perform as well as a $57 grand M3 by doing some research and wrenching on your own vehicle, is that REALLY making you square with the readers who don't own that car, Tim? Oh and bragging about how he plays with his cars while tirelessly plugging his publication, might "attract more business" that could possibly "grow the magazine" and "improve" it.

Sounds more than a little douchey to me.

ignorant
ignorant SuperDork
12/9/08 11:53 a.m.
Keith wrote: Right now, there's another thread right beside this one celebrating the fact that the Porsche Cayman is now down in the $37k range. A little bit ironic, doncha think?

grassrootsy or un-grassrootsy .. Should this be like the new Hot or Not?

RXBeetle
RXBeetle New Reader
12/9/08 12:23 p.m.

Crabgrassroots or sprinkler watered fertilized sodroots, it's all green. As long as there is someone willing to throw it around some cones I want to see read and drool over it. What does the guy with a decent job, a condo, and a wife that doesn't appreciate project cars do to get his motorsports rocks off? He buys a damn BMW and hoons that thing every weekend forgetting his mortgage, his lack of a real garage, his berklying boss, and his wife that wont berlkey. He also probably subscribes to GRM. I'm not that guy, I'll probably never be that guy, but that guys needs his GRM too.

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess SuperDork
12/9/08 12:59 p.m.

I couldn't love GRM the magazine or the website more, and believe me, I don't like to be the P.C police or anything or the guy who has a problem with everything thing, but I do have a problem with this...

I find it a bit offensive that you use terms like "Tim," "Suddard," "Magazine Owner," "Miata" and "Cool Car" etc etc... for your little descriptions or whatever in the editorials. I myself do not have special needs, nor am I a special ed teacher or counselor, but I feel sensitivity for people with special needs as I am a student taking special ed classes, and my Girlfriend is pursuing her masters in the field.

These terms although I'm pretty sure are not even real words, are obviously meant to resemble the words used to describe people with desireable vehicles, and it appears that they are used on these boards in a joking sense which, as I view it, makes light of people who are afflicted with nice car disabilities.

Kramer
Kramer Reader
12/9/08 1:14 p.m.

I've autocrossed dozens of times, and done two HPDE's (also spectated at others). At almost every event, there were expensive cars (911GT's, Vipers, BMW's, etc). Most of these cars were owned and driven by people exactly like me, but with more disposable income. A few were just "rich people" with expensive toys, but some were retired racers who knew more about racing than I'll ever know. It's nice to know they have a magazine that caters to their hobby.

My father has owned his business for over 30 years, and has about as many employees as GRM. I suspect top-line revenue would be similar. My dad deserves to have toys that are within his means. If the owners of GRM want to buy a nice car, or a big house, that's fine by me. They're not screwing me on the price of my subscription, and they fill a niche in the magazine business that caters to my hobby. Good for them.

walterj
walterj HalfDork
12/9/08 1:14 p.m.

I will take this as an opportunity to say that while I think Vito is a douche and wrong about Tim... I think the recent love-fest for the new E90/E92s is dead content in the mag. BMW gave them a car hoping for some kind words and GRM likes the car so they do... but it doesn't really fit in IMO. There isn't anything cool about bolting on some crap the advertisers gave you to a car that the car company gave you. If you don't have to use a little inginuity, and a welder to install it - its just the same bolt-on I can read about anywhere.

Now... I'll take that back if part of this "project car" is a tube chassis and home-made widebody to go ALMS racing in. If you do an article on HID lamps I'll throw up.

Kramer
Kramer Reader
12/9/08 1:17 p.m.

And I also appreciate that the original post hasn't been magically deleted, or that the poster has been chided by the owners for his opinion. We'll take care of that.

And I bet the OP doesn't like Honda Ridgelines.

Karl La Follette
Karl La Follette Reader
12/9/08 1:29 p.m.

The fact that Jay leno owns million dollar cars and obtainable classics is basically the same thing . Tim has lots of cool cars but driving them everyday gets old . Driving a fat ass beamer to get from point A to B is very much in need sometimes . Loaner or store bought transportation is transportation . I think BMW needs Tim more than Tim needs BMW . Hey Tim can you hook me up with a loaner BMW for the Neuburgring track ?

bravenrace
bravenrace HalfDork
12/9/08 2:10 p.m.
Karl La Follette wrote: The fact that Jay leno owns million dollar cars and obtainable classics is basically the same thing . Tim has lots of cool cars but driving them everyday gets old . Driving a fat ass beamer to get from point A to B is very much in need sometimes . Loaner or store bought transportation is transportation . I think BMW needs Tim more than Tim needs BMW . Hey Tim can you hook me up with a loaner BMW for the Neuburgring track ?

Ahem, we're talking about a car.

HiTempguy
HiTempguy Reader
12/9/08 2:33 p.m.

I've been reading GRM for over 2 years now. IMO, the cars are starting to get a bit too "new". Admittingly enough, there are only so many times you can fix a miata or neon into what you want it to be before it becomes old hat. I appreciate the GRM crew pointing out the best bang for the buck deals in new (and newER) cars, as that is definitly grassroots. But sometimes I read articles and go "boy, this isn't really the reason I read this magazine at all". Of course, it was the same with Car Craft.

Oh, and not enough Canadian rally content in the events portion at the back of the mag. I seem to remember there was mention's a couple of times last year, but nothing much this year. Hey, you win some you lose some ;)

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess SuperDork
12/9/08 2:56 p.m.

Furthermore, I think we should have one issue each year dedicated entirely to one of the following vehicles:

Lotus Esprit Turbo, Lotus Europa, Locost, AE92 Corolla

Occasionally, an article on the RN Truck too, you know, as something to haul the race car with.

John Brown
John Brown GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
12/9/08 3:03 p.m.
Dr. Hess wrote: Furthermore, I think we should have one issue each year dedicated entirely to one of the following vehicles: Ford Escort LX sedan, Chevrolet Cavalier, Dodge Stratus, Toyota Corolla Occasionally, an article on the Chevrolet Equinox too, you know, as something to haul the race car with.

Edited that for you Hess.

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson New Reader
12/9/08 3:11 p.m.

Throwing in my $0.02. to me Grassroots' means anything other than top line 'factory' or 'dedicated pro' teams. In this case Motorsports and cars in general, so that covers everything from an 16 year old kid wrenching on his (or her) Neon/Miata/E30 whatever so they can autocross it or open track it up to and including a privateer running the Daytona 24hours or similar. I love the range of and type of cars, events and the like that covered. If I have one gripe with the magazine it's the $200x challenge, yeah back with the original $1500 challenge it was something new, different and exciting, but come on, it's getting old to me. Yes it shows in the extreme what can be done through hard work, inspiration, dedication, skill and ingenuity, but to me it has relatively little to do with the real world. I realize that's probably an unpopular opinion on this board where most people are focused on the 'challenge' aspect of grassroots, but I wonder what the overall readership thinks.

My ideal GRM magazine challenge would be a cross between the $200x challenge and the ultimate track car challenge. It'd be open to any 'street legal' vehicle of any cost and would consist of 1) Concourse 2) Autocross/Sprint/TT style event 3)Drag strip and the new one 4)Coolness/inginuity factor. Scoring would be apportioned 20%, 10%, 10% and 60%. In the last category a brand new Porsche GT2 would score low as it's an off the shelf product, but something like Keith Targa Miata would score really high and something like the Bezerkly or MiNissan would score off the charts. I'm more interested in how unusual and cool something is than how cheap/expensive or fast/slow it is.

Back to the current magazine content, the challenge related stuff is the last thing I read. My favorite stand out articles in no particular order have been

The blue low buck Miata that you did up for STS2, The V6 engined Datsun 510, Saab Rally car The Flyin Miata OTC car The Sprongles Group B Audi 'Killer B' The Challenge SHOgun The original project Volvo The E30 M3 There was an article on a 911SC that a guy built for autocross Most of the other project vehicles Etc etc

Note with the exception of the SHOgun type Festive non were Challenge vehicles.

There comes a point when buying a new car and adding bolt on's is cheaper to me than fixing or rebuild a cheap project car. I, and I assume many others, are at the point in life where paying the mortgage, working, driving kids to school/friends/riding lessons, taking vacations as a family, seeing my aging parents etc means that time in the garage is a very expensive in personal terms. Suddenly $200 and five mins to bolt it on is a lot cheaper than $5 and a whole weekend refurbishing said part, wrestling with rust and skinning my knuckles. Cheap/Expensive isn't just $$'s and Grassroots' doesn't just mean old and busted.

Raze
Raze New Reader
12/9/08 3:50 p.m.

Maybe this is off topic, but I agree with the newness factor of the cars coming through GRM, I personally like older machines since, well none of the 'rags' talk about how cool a Neon is in the year 2008, or how fast a C4 Corvette can go anymore.

Anyway, I'd like to see some cars I'd like to see as GRM projects (Someone please point me to the publication date to correct me):

1) XR4Ti

2) Starion/Conquest TSi

3) 911 turbo (930)

4) Some form of pickup truck (that's right I want to see an auto-x'ing P-U)

5) A station wagon, I don't care what year/marque/etc, just give me a wagon

feel free to thrash...

Kramer
Kramer Reader
12/9/08 4:03 p.m.

I'm sure GRM appreciates the ideas--just think how difficult it is to come up with new ideas for each issue!

Personally, I'd like to see more detailed tech articles. With lots of pictures and explanations. And don't limit it to the cars; how about a detailed rebuild of trailer brakes/bearings, or how to build a functional/secure tire rack for an open trailer.

Maybe an article about making my 10-year-old truck better for towing.

Also, featuring high-dollar shops (and some of the GRM-friendly things they do) gives us ideas that can translate to our budgets.

Salanis
Salanis SuperDork
12/9/08 4:08 p.m.

If we're all throwing in our definition of what "Grassroots" is, how about:

People with limited resources (time, money, space, practical necessity) making the most out of what they have.

We're not all limited in the same ways. Some are more limited by money. Others might have more resources, but can only practically keep one car, that needs to be able to do everything without worry or hassle.

The 335i articles give those people ideas of what they're able to do. Other articles give other people ideas. And the magazine isn't getting any smaller, so you're not getting any fewer useful articles. You're just getting extra articles with more targeted value.

Vito82
Vito82
12/9/08 4:36 p.m.

Ahem. First and foremost I must ask you all to remove Tim's naughty bits from your collective mouths long enough to hear me out.

I don't even have that much of a problem with Tim, I do however have a very large problem with internet tough guys who feel the need to stick up for your hero when I legitimately call him out on his utter hogwash!

It boils down to this-

A. Tim Knowingly publishes lies to the sheep (ie: you flame-tards) who comb over the pages of his filthy smut rag monthly. He claims that he owned said nazi-mobile, and now claims that the 4th reich over at Baverian Motor Werks owns it instead.

or

  1. Tim does in fact own the BMW, and is guilty of being an elitist, pompous bimmer driver, which cannot be futher removed from the grassroots motor scene upon which he has built his massive, fraudulent empire.

iii. Further more sirs and madams of the Internets, you want to know what grassroots is, I will tell you what grassroots is. Grassroots is the scared, stubbly face of a hardened American steel toe boot wearing, factory worker, pulling a double down at the mill. It is certainly not a media mogul socialite debutante palling around with his with his playboy cronies at "upscale track days" where the real grassroots proles are barred entrance from those golden paved diamond encrusted racing circuits.

This has been the 30,000th anniversary of the claimed purchase of Tim's BMW 335i

Goodnight and Good luck, stay tuned for Rachel Maddow

njansenv
njansenv New Reader
12/9/08 4:42 p.m.

You're calling US"internet tough guys"!?!? I still don't get why BMW's can't be Grassroots.
I'll own a 335i someday: When German Luxury car depreciation allows me to in about 6-10 years. People who think that I'm a luxury BMW elitist snob can kiss my ass while they drive higher priced american sport-utes with their higher running costs.

Tim doesn't owe it to ANYONE to drive a clapped out POS just to "represent" the magazine.

You need some manners there kiddo.

Damnit.

walterj
walterj HalfDork
12/9/08 4:50 p.m.

Hahahaha! I near choked on my tea and krumpets there good lad. I shant listen to this drivel, the chariot needs waxing I have to ensure the servants do it properly.

Keith
Keith GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
12/9/08 4:51 p.m.

The problem, Vito, is that not everyone agrees that you "legitimately" called out Tim. You were presented with reasoned arguments - using much less inflammatory language than you choose to use.

Can't deal with it? Then don't express an opinion in public unless you're surrounded by a bunch of people who aren't able to think enough to develop an opinion of their own.

I'm a grassroots racer. I don't work at a mill or wear steel toes, but that doesn't meant that I don't sacrifice in order to race.

MrJoshua
MrJoshua SuperDork
12/9/08 4:55 p.m.

Wow! So you would rather he be a guy pulling a double down at the mill so he fits your definition of grassroots? How, pray tell, do you expect him to publish a magazine while working at the mill? Instead of the mill, he pulls doubles and triples working on a magazine. He drags dead cars out of the woods and brings them back to life. He spends stupid amounts of hours on the road trying to make the mag a success. He busts his ass to try to be successful doing something he loves. Along the way he tries to live much of his life having things that reap rewards typically reserved for items of much higher buy in by using a little elbow grease and ingenuity. So he bought or signed for a new BMW. Hes driving the piss out of it and telling the truth along the way. Its not what the grassroots guy down at the mill does, but what the hell does being a millworker have to do with racing cars?

BTW-It sounds like Rennie was just labeled a playboy crony!

SupraWes
SupraWes Dork
12/9/08 4:55 p.m.

Jealous any?

Noone at GRM is getting rich, I think the magazine speaks for itself, they are passionate about cars and are doing what they love. If they are lucky enough to be able to afford a nice car, or a kickass new HQ they deserve it, and I want to hear all about it.

aircooled
aircooled Dork
12/9/08 4:58 p.m.
Vito82 wrote: ...Grassroots is the scared, stubbly face of a hardened American steel toe boot wearing, factory worker, pulling a double down at the mill...

I don't know, from what I have learned in another thread it seems like a lot of those "hardened American steel toe boot wearing, factory worker" (s) at the UAW could easily afford a 335i!

Of course they would likely get stoned for bringing it to work, seein' as it ain't 'merican and all.

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