Best low buck fuel solution I've heard of (from an entertainment angle) was the one that was on the turbo system the boss installed in 1990. When you went into positive manifold pressure, a switch would block off the return line from the fuel rail. Instant jump to whatever maximum fuel pressure the pump could attain. Not very effective :)
Keith Tanner said:Best low buck fuel solution I've heard of (from an entertainment angle) was the one that was on the turbo system the boss installed in 1990. When you went into positive manifold pressure, a switch would block off the return line from the fuel rail. Instant jump to whatever maximum fuel pressure the pump could attain. Not very effective :)
Coming soon to a Challenge near you.
As for tuning, why not see if someone local is selling an S-AFC for cheap? There's gotta be a way to make it work on a 318.
Keith Tanner said:Rising rate fuel pressure regulator and retard the base timing, assuming it's a fairly stupid ECU. Crude but it actually kinda works.
Sad but true << 10psi it can work pretty well. More fuel pump and either more octane or simple timing retard is a good idea.
Paul_VR6 said:Keith Tanner said:Rising rate fuel pressure regulator and retard the base timing, assuming it's a fairly stupid ECU. Crude but it actually kinda works.
Sad but true << 10psi it can work pretty well. More fuel pump and either more octane or simple timing retard is a good idea.
Higher octane fuel gets expensive. Retarding timing costs power.
Or you might use E85. While that requires more fuel, That might be met with bigger injectors. The lower cost of E85 should offset or help offset the higher volume required.
E85 is a wonder drug indeed, but if you don’t have an ethanol sensor plumbed into the ECU it’s a bit of gamble as the ethanol content can vary quite a bit.
Turbos are knock limited, so retarding base timing allows you actually run some boost and achieve your peak power. The downside is that it’ll be lazier off boost and won’t spool quite as fast. It’s a reasonable solution for cheap.
I like a high compression engine with a lot of timing off-boost, but only if I have the tools to make it work and those aren’t the same as “super cheap”!
In reply to Keith Tanner :
While it varies from 51%- 85% it also tends to follow patterns. Higher in alcohol in the summer, lower in the winter.
While there are ways to test fuel for alcohol content The way I'm familiar with invokes glass tubes, floats, and glass thermometers.
I've heard of the " baby bottle method" but haven't tested it to confirm it's accuracy
Modern cars (including well-done turbo Miatas) do it with a sensor in the fuel feed line and will tweak injector pulse width, ignition timing and boost level in real time to suit. But we’re not talking about that level here.
You can measure the content manually on every tank and then adjust the fuel injector size and base timing accordingly, I suppose. Seems a little high effort :)
E85 also requires some different hardware so it doesn't break down. Things like fuel lines.
In reply to _ :
One of the myths that just refuses to die in spite of all the contrary information published.
OK there are two kinds of alcohol.
The old methanol used a lot in the 50's- 60's etc. made from coal etc. deadly poison, drink it you die. Attacks metal rubber etc. nasty stuff, don't breathe it or get on your bare skin. 116 octane
Ethanol which is made from corn, grapes, or apples, well, a lot of edible things. It's what makes you happy when you drink a little beer wine booze etc. 114 octane found in Gasoline.
Next, fuel line since the 1930's has not been made from rubber. It's made from butyl or other synthetic rubber like products and is clearly marked fuel line. A common mistake is to buy fuel line at a hardware store. While it's the right size it's not to be used for fuel.
Finally back in the 1980's and 90's manufacturer's trying to compete with cheap imports used cheaper and cheaper components and when they failed blamed it on the "gas"
Here is what I learned on while turbo'ing a CRX for the challenge. Expense mostly depended on how good your fabrication and engine tuning knowledge was.
1. Keep stock ECU if possible-it's probably been cracked by somebody at this point, and can be programmed with a laptop or similar. I'd sooner run a canned map that I downloaded from the net rather than mess with a rising rate FPR or some other enrichment scheme. You'll have to retard the timing as well, and a cracked OE ECU will do that as well...probably with logging too. If I can't keep the OE ECU, i'd go MS.
2. Get a WideBand 02 so you can check out the AFR, and make a set of detonation cans so you have a prayer of figuring out where the engine starts knocking.
3. I'd try for a T3 turbo with an internal wastegate and no Intercooler
Checkout homemadeturbo.com for more bad ideas with questionable longevity.
Keith Tanner said:Modern cars (including well-done turbo Miatas) do it with a sensor in the fuel feed line and will tweak injector pulse width, ignition timing and boost level in real time to suit. But we’re not talking about that level here.
You can measure the content manually on every tank and then adjust the fuel injector size and base timing accordingly, I suppose. Seems a little high effort :)
I'm not arguing that modern sensors and ECU's that can read and adapt aren't the best solution. They are and they do work best.
However the original premise was to use a cheap Turbo charger on a car not set up for it. Very much on the cheap.
Overnight I rethought of maybe another way how to estimate percentage of Alcohol in the fuel?
First realize one advantage alcohol has over gasoline. gas works over a fairly narrow range (can't spell it close enough to get spell check to correct) while alcohol works in a much broader range.
alcohol is clear, water clear. Gasoline is darker, much darker. 85% alcohol would have a lot of clear in it while 51% Alcohol would be much darker.
Can it be as simple as looking at the color of the fuel?
While this in no way would be as good as modern sensors etc. there are a lot of guys with carbs, older fuel injection systems, etc. who right now can't use E85 but who would benefit from it if they could.
frenchyd said: Jerks will love to criticize anything or offer alternative suggestions. Knowledgeable people will realize at a glance any shortcuts or mistakes. Loudmouths will tell you what else you should of, could have, must do.
I have been there and just smile and then ask them where is the custom supercharged car that they built so I can see how it is done.
I could care less what others think of my work. I don't do it for them. I am looking at putting either a m62 or an m90 on my current project car. Will the mounting plate be hacked from a piece of 1/4 inch plate using a sazall? Absolutely!! Will the welds be the best looking booger piles? Yep.
I'm all for cheap solutions, but when you can build a Megasquirt from a kit or get a Speeduino for less than $300 I just don't see the sense in any of this.
This plus an m90 will be fun
In reply to frenchyd :
Most modern fuel is clear these days so I don't think you could use color.
In reply to dean1484 :
Good for you! It's nice to find someone who worries more about function than form.
I'm just not that enlightened. Critism and negative comments on something I worked hard on bothers me. It gets under my skin and forces me to be obsessive compulsive about appearance too.
When I was hanging accessories off the front of the race car. I scaled up and down the French curve template so the critics couldn't make a negative comment about in-elegant lines. That forced me to change the diameter of the various holes used to lighten the mounts and alter the placement. Then I needed to change the radius of the chamfer of the holes. Etc.
I obsessed that there was a more elegant, lighter and stronger way.
Bugatti, Ferrari, Lyons I'm not. However, if I'm going to play with their cars, I'd hate to be thought of as a mindless clod.
dean1484 said:In reply to frenchyd :
Most modern fuel is clear these days so I don't think you could use color.
Yes it's clear but it has color, a tint if you wil? While alcohol is colorless, clear, , like water?
ShinnyGroove said:I'm all for cheap solutions, but when you can build a Megasquirt from a kit or get a Speeduino for less than $300 I just don't see the sense in any of this.
He started with a $65 part. Maybe he's trying to avoid mission creep?
I'm reminded of NASA trying to get a pen to write reliably in the vacuum and gravity-less of space.
The Russian solution? A pencil.
I have a brand new Megasquirt in the box. Their website has guys trying for over a Year to get it to work as well as the old analog system does in a Jaguar. Several of the engines I got were from guys who gave up on getting their cars to run using a Megasquirt.
For some cars and guys a Megasquirt is an elegant easy solution. Others? Not so easy or not at all.
Yeah. Having gone down the path of rising rate fuel regulators, timing retard boxes, etc. there is a reason I'm running a $650 Megasquirt with a $120 Ebay churbo and a homemade manifold. Turbos are dumb, they just do their job until they don't.
CrustyRedXpress said:Here is what I learned on while turbo'ing a CRX for the challenge. Expense mostly depended on how good your fabrication and engine tuning knowledge was.
1. Keep stock ECU if possible-it's probably been cracked by somebody at this point, and can be programmed with a laptop or similar. I'd sooner run a canned map that I downloaded from the net rather than mess with a rising rate FPR or some other enrichment scheme. You'll have to retard the timing as well, and a cracked OE ECU will do that as well...probably with logging too. If I can't keep the OE ECU, i'd go MS.
2. Get a WideBand 02 so you can check out the AFR, and make a set of detonation cans so you have a prayer of figuring out where the engine starts knocking.
3. I'd try for a T3 turbo with an internal wastegate and no Intercooler
Checkout homemadeturbo.com for more bad ideas with questionable longevity.
You are absolutely correct regarding common applications.
The obscure? Not so much.
ShinnyGroove said:Yeah. Having gone down the path of rising rate fuel regulators, timing retard boxes, etc. there is a reason I'm running a $650 Megasquirt with a $120 Ebay churbo and a homemade manifold. Turbos are dumb, they just do their job until they don't.
We all tend to revert back to what we are comfortable with as we age. I know how much more efficient and lighter turbo'd would be.
Right now I'm putting a Roots type blower on top of a JaguarV12 with a Holley Dominator carb.
My quick tgaught on figuaring fuel percentages would be to take 50ml of water that has a water based food coloring in it. Then add 50 ml of fuel shake a little and let it sit. The water should absorb the alcohol increasing it volume. Then look at the total colored liquid on the bottom versus the remaining fuel on top. Subtract 50 from the amount on the bottom and the remainder x 2 will be your percentage of alcohol/methonal in the fuel.
no clue if it would actually work and no clue as to how long it would have to sit and if the colorant used in the water was also petroleum solvent but hay it won't cost anything to try.
Keith Tanner said:Rising rate fuel pressure regulator and retard the base timing, assuming it's a fairly stupid ECU. Crude but it actually kinda works. I don't know how old this 318 is. If there's any headroom in the injectors, a piggyback such as our Voodoo Box is a bit slicker.
Keep in mind that if you pull the stock ECU, you are now responsible for EVERYTHING. Cold start, AC compensation, tip-in behaviour - all that stuff is actually pretty hard but is ignored by most people and as a result there are a lot of MS cars that run like crap. With this boost level, work with the stock ECU if at all possible.
Wow are you ever right about that. The Megasquirt web site is filled with people who try to get their Megasquirt to work as well as the old fashioned Analog system on Jaguars does.
Did I imagine it or doesn't it take something like 15,000 man hours to write all the code needed to get engines to run and meet the various requirements?
I'm sure by now there is a lot of copying back and forth etc to avoid a lot of those hours. But still.
In reply to dean1484 :
I do intend to try it. But not during the busy busy busy Christmas season or the frigid weather that follows.
I'll let you know.
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