I have nothing constructive to offer other than this is the most entertaining thread ive read in weeks.
I have nothing constructive to offer other than this is the most entertaining thread ive read in weeks.
OK, I guess I just don't understand why you'd buy a minivan if you don't have kids to haul around. If you want a truck, it seems like you'd be better off... buying a truck? :) We certainly don't plan to keep buying minivans after the kids are grown.
I don't have kids, but I do have various reasons to consider a minivan. I really loved my '92 Voyager, and partially because it had a proper clutch pedal.
The lack of minivans with clutches is what kept me from buying one this time.
Of the automatic minivans I drove, I liked the Transit Connect most, with the RAM ProMaster City second. The Nissan was awful.
I have had several of both Chryslers and Honda minivans from the late eighties to the early 2000s. Both great, underrated vehicles for car guys to haul everything from small race cars to parts to kids in. First new vehicle I ever bought was a 1998 Town And Country. Loved that thing, passed it on to my wife's parents and then JG bought it and used it for years.
codrus wrote: OK, I guess I just don't understand why you'd buy a minivan if you don't have kids to haul around. If you want a truck, it seems like you'd be better off... buying a truck? :) We certainly don't plan to keep buying minivans after the kids are grown.
I guess it depends on how you would use said truck. If you're hauling thousands of pounds of sod, engine blocks, or towing 10,000 lbs, you need a truck. Just about anything else, a minivan will do it and return more comfort and fuel economy.
Oh, and the stuff you're hauling is protected from the weather and thieves.
DrBoost wrote:codrus wrote: OK, I guess I just don't understand why you'd buy a minivan if you don't have kids to haul around. If you want a truck, it seems like you'd be better off... buying a truck? :) We certainly don't plan to keep buying minivans after the kids are grown.I guess it depends on how you would use said truck. If you're hauling thousands of pounds of sod, engine blocks, or towing 10,000 lbs, you need a truck. Just about anything else, a minivan will do it and return more comfort and fuel economy. Oh, and the stuff you're hauling is protected from the weather and thieves.
Exactly. The only thing my Cummins did better than the GC was haul 3 yards (3000 lbs) of mulch and firewood. Both for the ex-g/f. And it was once used to tow the ex's dead Spitfire home on a borrowed trailer (that probably weighs more than the car). My old full-size van hauled firewood better and would have probably towed the car adequately, if not as well. Now that I have no need to haul mulch, I have no real need for a truck bed.
My main use for the van is secure and discrete cargo hauling when the contents (my racing bicycles) are worth more than the van. Plus, it's nice to be able to do a Lowes-Depot run without concern for the weather, which happened a few times with the truck and/or the wagon w/ roof rack.
Oh yeah... And I've hauled engines in the GC as well as a 900 lb scissor lift I bought off this forum. Considering my truck was a 4x4 model, the lower loading height of the GC made the task actually possible. I'm pretty sure neither the engine hoist Mark has nor the one I have would have been able to get the lift high enough to load into/off the truck.
I can give perspective from the Korean side of the house.
I've put roughly 130k miles on the '06-'13 generation of Kia Sedona. First was an '06 we bought brand new and ran to 118k miles. Next (and current) is a '10 we bought a few months ago. It was senior owned and only had 17k miles when we bought it. Both are base LX models with no upgrades. So no power sliding doors, no rear view camera, no leather.
The Sedona packs one hell of a value. The standard features were fine for us and it wasn't worth the upgrade to the EX trim. 3 zone a/c was standard, as were a host of safety features. Van seats 7, but has something like 14 cupholders. Useful when you're hauling kids. I can't say I missed any of the luxury touches. Would power sliding doors be nice? I suppose, but to me it was just one less thing to break. No Stow N Go, but I'm another one who just never drank that Cool Aid. I guess for those who need it, it's awesome. But in 9 years of Sedona ownership, I can count the number of times I wish I had it on one hand. I'll admit, the middle seats are minor pain to remove, but it's nothing earth shattering. I've never tried hauling 4x8s with it, I'm not a handyman type. But we've used it to help move our family a few times, and it's been great at hauling moving boxes.
Love the powertrain. It's got surprising power, I can smoke the tires easily. I can also surprise a sleeping Fox body. No, I wouldn't win in an outright drag race, but don't be napping on me. 
That power also allows it to tow easily. I've towed a lot with the Kia. Cars on a dolly and a 6x10 landscape trailer mostly. It towed anything I threw at it with ease. All that power also comes with a price. MPG is 16-18 in mixed driving, 23 highway if you're lucky.
It's a beast in the snow on good all seasons. Never tried snow tires, but I imagine it'd be near unstoppable. Handling on dry pavement is minivan like. Nowhere near as bad as an SUV, but not a sports car. It's fine. Great long distance cruiser. I just drove 550 miles yesterday (Orlando to Tampa, Tampa to ATL) and it was comfy.
The interior is definitely not luxury grade. But we bought the van to beat the puppy snot out of, so I'm perfectly content having hard plastics and cloth seats. They have worn well and withstood the abuse we've thrown at them. All the controls are incredibly easy and straightforward.
Reliability? Uh, yeah, like gravity. We bought the '06 in January 2007 and sold it in April 2015 with 118 or 119k miles. Unscheduled repairs? Exactly one. Reflash the ECU sometime in 2007 when it was nearly new. Even that didn't leave it stranded, just caused a check engine light. Beyond that, it was tires, brakes, tranny flush, etc... Never a single issue. When we sold it, it needed new shocks, but that's normal. I told the wife go ahead and let's buy something else. Nearly bought a big SUV, but in the end she chose another Sedona???? Coulda' cleaned up the one we had, but that's another story for another day. The 2010 we've only had less than a year, but it's continuing the trend. No issues.
To me, they are (or at least were) the best value on the minivan market. We bought our '06 for $17k brand new. We paid just $11k for our 2010 with 17k miles on it. Someone may be able to convince me that brand x has some better features than the Sedona, but it'll come with a price tag. I looked at the new generation and was quite impressed. And quite shocked at the sticker price.
MCarp22 wrote:Ian F wrote: If there is one downside to the GC/TC twins it is they don't really hold their value, as Duke alluded to. Not a big deal if you are a "run it into the ground" type (many of us)That can be a disaster if the van is totaled and the pittance the insurance company offers is the actual value.
Which has happened to us not once, but twice. Bought a base '92 SWB Caravan as our first new car about a month before DD#1 was born. Fast forward to 2003 and it was a completely non-rusty garage queen with just about 100k on it, used on an as-needed basis and likely to last at least 5 more years. Killed by getting rear-ended and we were given top dollar for the carcass, by which I mean about $2500.
We replaced it with a used 2000 GC Sport with about 40k on the clock. Drove that on an as-needed basis (though it lost its garage spot after a while) for about 40k over the next 11 years (hmmmm...) until it too was killed by getting rear ended. They totaled that out for about $5500 which actually wasn't bad, considering we'd only paid about $10.5k for it in 2003.
I bought the GCS back and sold it to my nephew who made it roadworthy again, built a bed platform in the back, and promptly put about 9,000 miles on it in 3 months. Roadtrips to Newfoundland and NOLA with the wife and dog will do that. He loves it.
codrus wrote: OK, I guess I just don't understand why you'd buy a minivan if you don't have kids to haul around. If you want a truck, it seems like you'd be better off... buying a truck? :) We certainly don't plan to keep buying minivans after the kids are grown.
We could have fixed the GCS ourselves but we were ready for something newer and nicer. The Concert Coach fits the bill even though the kids are grown. Take ourselves, both DDs, and DD#1's boyfriend on a furniture run to IKEA and come back with a bunch of furniture? No problem. But, frankly, if it was just DW and I making the 8-hour trip to the Carolinas to visit her cousins, we'd probably take the T&C.
That thing will just eat up the roadtrip miles with safety, speed, and comfort, even when it's not hauling a couple chairs and a coffee table as well. But I guess I better start watching my rearview mirror carefully in 2026 or so.
I also feel the newer Sedonas are really underappreciated. They're huge, peppy, and cheap. I think i'd take one over the contemporary Chryslers.
I've owned 9 minivans now (its possible im forgetting one). 4 of them were turbo (2 i still have), and one was a manual (which i also still have). At no point in that time did i have children. But i HAVE towed cars, hauled bicycles and motorcycles INSIDE, taken road trips, slept on the floor, hauled engines, drag raced, gone off roading, and i'm seriously considering taking one to the Challenge this year.
Klayfish wrote: I can give perspective from the Korean side of the house. I've put roughly 130k miles on the '06-'13 generation of Kia Sedona.
If my memory is correct this era Sedona was manufactured off of the old Chrysler tooling. See if the sliding door handles match the turn of the century T&C/GCs.
They bought the whole set of plant equipment basically. We then sold the Stratus tooling to some guys in Russia that still make the car.
Proud owner of the new 2015 Kia Sedona. Grew up riding in (2nd and 3rd gen) and then driving (4th gen) then worked for Chysler engineering the 5th Gen Chrysler Dodge minivans. (No longer Chrysler employed)
Did a lot of comparison for work and just in life. For some reason, as the OP says, everyone seemed to hate on the Chrysler minivans. But they were always the best minivans. Chrysler definitely dropped the ball now and then but overall they have owned minivans from the start and intend to do so until they don't exist. The minivan program budgets were always rather generous. I do remember one error just after September 11th. For some reason a rather nice engine program to increase fuel economy and torque was cancelled just before being ready for launch. Something the van got negative reviews about just a year or two later. The classic error in marketing not knowing how to sell a smaller displacement as the top level engine.
The current Sienna seems to indicate Toyota giving up. The ride and features seem to have been reduced from the previous generation.
Honda vans are nice, quite on par with the Pentastar but seemed to lose the value analysis, cost versus stuff. Plus as the OP said they seemed to have some design and quality issues that somehow didn't affect the sales or perception.
The new Kia is a large step beyond the other minivans. I have found the driving dynamics better than the Honda and GC. Plus many little features that make Kias just a little nicer to live with are there. Auto folding side mirrors, a la carte option adding, 2nd row seat comfort, display/radio controls, and 8 passenger seating. The biggest negative is the lack of second row S&G. (The patent on second row stow and go is still holding for the Pentastar.) The sliding "standing" 2nd row seats are nice but a huge negative compared to stow and go. The Ikea trip wasn't a no brainer like when we used the T&C. We liked our Kia dealer experience with the Optima so we took a chance on the Sedona.
I suspect a lot of the handling, braking and features advantage I see in my new Kia will be obliterated by the new Pacifica.
I am already looking forward to the end of our Kia lease.
Advan046 wrote:Klayfish wrote: I can give perspective from the Korean side of the house. I've put roughly 130k miles on the '06-'13 generation of Kia Sedona.If my memory is correct this era Sedona was manufactured off of the old Chrysler tooling. See if the sliding door handles match the turn of the century T&C/GCs. They bought the whole set of plant equipment basically. We then sold the Stratus tooling to some guys in Russia that still make the car.
I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Maybe the previous generation? I know the Sedona is sold elsewhere around the world as the "Carnival", but I think it's a Kia/Hyundai designed platform? Regardless, it's a hell of a family tank.
In 2004 when child #2 was getting ready to arrive I went out and bought a 2000 Grand Caravan with the 3.8 engine. We road tripped that thing EVERYWHERE. In 4 years we racked up 100K miles, had to have something in the AC replaced out of pocket and had most of the body replaced under warrantee due to the swiss cheese effect. Otherwise it needed nothing but one set of tires and oil changes.
Currently, "trucklike" ranks higher than "people hauler" so I have a Suburban but minivans are pretty amazing at what they do. If Chrysler could make the rest of their cars as well as they do their vans they'd likely own all the markets.
The new Kia is a large step beyond the other minivans. I have found the driving dynamics better than the Honda and GC. Plus many little features that make Kias just a little nicer to live with are there.
Ive crawled over one but have yet to drive one. It certainly seems in a class of its own (until the Pacifica comes out, as you say) but it loses a little bit in sheer size vs the others.
I've suspected that the class-competitive power numbers from a smaller engine mean the thing really likes high rpms, have you found that to be true? My favorite thing about the Sienna is the engine. The Chrysler vans have a fun engine but hooked to a total joykill transmission.
I really can't wait to go look at the new Pacifica in person. I love the design and the interior looks great. The plug-in Hybrid is the model I'd want. Perfect blend of road trip and cargo ability with around-town fuel economy. If the price is under $40k, and it's reliable, Chrysler will have hit this one out of the park - not that it will sell.
I was also looking at smaller vans like the Ram Promaster City or Ford TC, but the interior amenities and space for passengers are so much worse than a Caravan, and fuel economy not much improved.
I've gotta say, the vehicle I'm contemplating buying to replace the MPV (when the time comes in maybe five years or so) is the minivan my sons affectionately refer to as "The Japanese Bus-Wagon", aka the Toyota Sienna. We had one for a week whilst on vacation and it did all the things such a vehicle needs to do, and did it quite well. I couldn't bring myself to buy a Fiat/Chrysler on a dare, and given our horrible experience with the 2011 Hyundai Sonata, I've no interest in venturing back to Korea. The Oddy would be my second choice, but at this point, it's a fairly distant second.
1988RedT2 wrote: I couldn't bring myself to buy a Fiat/Chrysler on a dare.
I hear people say stuff like this but I've owned 5 Mopar vehicles over the past almost 25 years and have never had serious trouble with any of them. The worst I had were the 2 '95 Neons that popped their headgaskets. Frankly I could have ignored that indefinitely with a little attention to the oil level, but Chrysler fixed them well out of warranty for $100 each anyway.
Duke wrote:1988RedT2 wrote: I couldn't bring myself to buy a Fiat/Chrysler on a dare.I hear people say stuff like this but I've owned 5 Mopar vehicles over the past almost 25 years and have never had serious trouble with any of them. The worst I had were the 2 '95 Neons that popped their headgaskets. Frankly I could have ignored that indefinitely with a little attention to the oil level, but Chrysler fixed them well out of warranty for $100 each anyway.
Likewise, the PT Cruiser and the Caravan have been largely trouble free. I reported all of my data to TrueDelta, so you can check there and see what frequency of repair Chrysler had. It's not much. They're fine cars.
nderwater wrote: We've rented a 2015 Kia Sedona for the past week. It's a huge step-up in style and luxury inside and out from my brother's 2015 Grand Caravan AVP, but kia.com says the as-configured MSRP for this car is $31,000 -- and there are three higher trim levels -- yikes! We also have a seven passenger 2013 Kia Sorento SUV. Except for ground clearance, the Sedona does absolutely everything our Sorento does, but better. Ride is better, interior space is so much more usable, even fuel economy is very slightly better, and the third row comfortably seats adults. My wife has never been a minivan person, but now she wants to trade our Sorento for a new Sedona asap...
I guess this post was prophetic... we traded our Sorento for a 2016 Sedona yesterday. It's a 'used' model with 800 miles on the clock, knocking many thousands off the asking price. Ahh, parenthood!
An ode to the humble minivan:
I'll skip the prose, though.
I had the seats folded in and hauled lumber and other big bulky stuff + a kid from Home Depot. The next morning, I hauled lots of garbage to the transfer station. Thirty seconds after arriving back home that morning, the van was re-converted to kid duty so Tunawife could bring the kids to co-op.
We rented a newer Grand Caravan back in October. I thought it compared well against our '05 Odyssey. The Grand Caravan had the better powertrain, MPG, and brakes, but the Odyssey had advantages in size, and storage capacity. I'd definitely look at all of the offerings before buying another minivan.
Our Odyssey has required more maintenance than I would have expected during our ownership, but I'm not sure I'd consider it excessive:
Overall, I'd say it's served us well over the last 7+ years and 90k or so.
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