Using the Power Steering pump to supply oil to a turbo.

Some one brought this up over at the DIY turbo forum. IT got me thinking that this is a neat idea. My thought is that you drain the turbo to a sump / collection tank and have the pump pull fluid from the tank.

I was also wondering since the pump can probably move way more oil than is needed by the turbo. Could pump the excess oil capasity of the pump through a cooler back to the collection tank? Plumb it in a similar fashion to how an EFI system with a return works. Just put a FPR on the system to maintain pressure and let the excess go through the cooler back to the tank. You would also probably want a filter in the system as well. Completely nuts or good idea? This way you could run a top quality oil with the specific properties you want for the turbo in a system that is separate from the engines oiling system.

i think it won't work because of the pressure. power steering systems can run upwards of 1000psi

not sure a fpr would be up to the task nor would a pump be up to the task of being regulated that low by an external source. plus they run on hydraulic fluid and not motor oil.

they do make external oil pumps though which to me would make a ton more sense.

This came up recently here.

The pump maxes out at 1000-1400psi pressure, true, but that can be altered at the pump.

The bigger issue is that you'd still need a scavenge stage to bring the oil up to a reservoir where it can be de-foamed.

IMO it's a lot of work for no real gain. If the engine oil was that nasty, it's not good for the engine either.

The key is that they can make up to 1000 psi. Provide a place for the fluid to go and no pressure is developed other than what the FPR wants. Also the FPR is not holding back 1000 psi it holds back the pressure that it is set for and then lets the rest of the fluid through so it will not see any more pressure than what ever it is set for / designed for. Another issue I see is that I don't think that the power steering pumps actually develop suction they only develop pressure. The only way you could develop suction would be to seal the cap on the pump and then it would be forced to pull fluid from the reservoir. A ps pump is immersed in fluid. The fluid in the pump is in effect the reservoir. IT is kept full by the pressure of the fluid returning from the steering rack. This may be the real issue. IF you can not get the PS pump to suck fluid in to its self the idea will not work.

I agree a FPR would regulate the pressure, but only providing you can find one that can handle the flow a p/s pump can produce. Otherwise, it may act like a restriction and and not work consistently. I know drag cars often flow huge amounts of fuel, so a FPR is available, but the cost may not be enough to make it cheaper than just going with a purpose built oil pump.

sounds like orc mischief to me...

Why run an accessory pump when the engine oil pump will do the job.

iceracer wrote: Why run an accessory pump when the engine oil pump will do the job.

this is the question i have, also...

Well because I am different and have car project A.D.D. and I like solving problems that have not been solved. Being normal is boring. I also like the idea that I could then run a different oil than what is in the motor. Lastly I was thinking it may be a better option when running a rear mounted setup.

A simple Y in the outlet with the proper restrictor in it to let oil return to the tank would solve the problem of to much flow and could be run through a cooler as well. This would reduce the flow to the FPR and keep the pressures down.

Now I'm not sure about running a PS pump output through a turbo, but maybe if you mounted one on the differential it would be able to pump the oil you send to a rear turbo back up to the engine?

What about heat? Can the power steering pump handle the heat generated by the turbo?

I know you want to have a cooler, but thats alot of heat

Knurled wrote: This came up recently here. The pump maxes out at 1000-1400psi pressure, true, but that can be altered at the pump.

Double check those numbers based on the vehicle. Many generic GM PS pumps made up to 2700 psi. Most R&P pumps are in the 1000-1500 range.

I like your thinking, but one little blip, one little miniscule fragment of dirt, one cold morning with thick oil, and you run the risk of the whole system seeing very high pressure. Remember that turbo seals aren't really designed to keep oil pressure out, they're designed to keep boost pressure in. Any thing remotely considered "high" pressure will just obliterate the sealing.

What I'm saying is; you're using a high volume, 1500-psi pump to supply a tiny volume of 20 psi oil. I would think the risk of overpressurizing would be pretty good.

But its a neat idea, and I'll be following with interest.

dean1484 wrote: A simple Y in the outlet with the proper restrictor in it to let oil return to the tank would solve the problem of to much flow and could be run through a cooler as well. This would reduce the flow to the FPR and keep the pressures down.

Why not just hack the existing regulator/flow valve in the pump?

As far as heat goes... P/S fluid gets way hotter than engine oil does/should.

And if one is concerned about the turbo bearings and the oil they get, then one has zero excuse to not run a water-cooled turbo. Water cooling is the #1 thing you can do to keep the turbo's bearings happy.

The biggest - BIGGEST - issue is that P/S fluid returns to the tank as fluid. Oil returns from a turbo as whipped cream. That's why turbo oil drains have to be so ridiculously huge relative to the inlet size.

I wish I could find the pics I took of a semi remote mounted turbo setup on a Firebird. The turbos were mounted very low and back, tucked in by the starter and oil filter. (They actually wrapped around the bellhousing - to remove the trans, the engine/trans/cradle assembly got dropped, and the exhaust manifolds removed, THEN you could pull the engine and trans apart) The inlet pipes snaked under the motor mounts through the (mandatory) tubular crossmember. The turbo oil drains dumped into a reservoir mounted just in front of the transmission pan, and a dry sump style scavenge pump then pulled it out of there and dumped it into the front of the oil pan. It was beautifully engineered, and really the right way to do it.

Oh, and those turbos were also water cooled

Interesting thought. I don't have much to add but what about using the ps pump for a super cheap dry sump system?

From Dave Williams' awesome site.

Text to go along with it:

"This ultra-trick dry sump setup was produced by GM and given out to people like Bruce McLaren and Smokey Yunick. It used an automatic transmission pump as the pressure pump and kept the original oil pump as a scavenge pump. The rise of (relatively) inexpensive multistage pumps in the aftermarket made these pieces obsolete. "

I think crazy things like that, too. Especially for certain four-rings engines that eat oil pumps over 8000rpm.

Why yes, I think a 10,000rpm forcefed five-cylinder would be just right for RallyCross. Because if you can't be fast, you can at least sound awesome.

The pressure is caused by the amount of restriction. Free flow, no pressure. Restricted to lube a turbo might be interesting.

Knurled wrote: From Dave Williams' awesome site. Text to go along with it: "This ultra-trick dry sump setup was produced by GM and given out to people like Bruce McLaren and Smokey Yunick. It used an automatic transmission pump as the pressure pump and kept the original oil pump as a scavenge pump. The rise of (relatively) inexpensive multistage pumps in the aftermarket made these pieces obsolete. "

looks kinda a lot like the setup GM uses on the LS7, and slightly less a lot like the setup used on every other LS engine..

Doesn't it, though?

Everything old is new again. Next thing you know, GM will be introducing a V8 with reverse-flow cooling like a '55 Pontiac.

ice racer wrote: The pressure is caused by the amount of restriction. Free flow, no pressure. Restricted to lube a turbo might be interesting.

This^^^^^ Keep the restriction to a minimum just the piping and the pressure will be a non issue. In Fact you would probably have to add a bit of restriction to create some pressure to provide to the turbo. And you have all the capacity you need to run a cooler as well. About foaming. I was thinking that this would / could be handled better since you are not limited to what you need to run in the motor. Most ATF's are very high detergent and I think they are lower foaming than regular oil so it could be an option. I am sure there are many other options out there that are better then the oil that is in the motor. The biggest issue I see is that most PS pumps have the reservoir above them or the pump sits in it and thus they don't suck oil they only push it. I wonder if they have the capacity to suck oil.

Run an "oil-less turbo" and not worry about any oil pump.

http://www.compturbo.com/spotlights/oilless

dean1484 wrote:

ice racer wrote: The pressure is caused by the amount of restriction. Free flow, no pressure. Restricted to lube a turbo might be interesting.

This^^^^^ Keep the restriction to a minimum just the piping and the pressure will be a non issue. In Fact you would probably have to add a bit of restriction to create some pressure to provide to the turbo. And you have all the capacity you need to run a cooler as well. About foaming. I was thinking that this would / could be handled better since you are not limited to what you need to run in the motor. Most ATF's are very high detergent and I think they are lower foaming than regular oil so it could be an option. I am sure there are many other options out there that are better then the oil that is in the motor. The biggest issue I see is that most PS pumps have the reservoir above them or the pump sits in it and thus they don't suck oil they only push it. I wonder if they have the capacity to suck oil.

Run the return line to a resevoir mounted above the pump similiar to stock, only larger to allow cooling and defoaming.

What about an electric power steering pump attached to a rheostat so you can control/fine tune flow?

cool idea, but couldn't you do the same thing with a cheap electric pump? I know the DIY turbo guys have figured which pump is good for this, particularly for remote mount turbos...

Total waste of time. Just do what all the turbo installations do and take oil off an engine gallery or fitting and then use a gravity drain.

Using an additional pump that puts out far too much oil at far too high a pressure and then trying to fix those issues is an exercise in automotive onanism.