VW - Porsche pissing match

So let's say you have spent the better part of the last ten year trying to take over another company in a hostile manner and suddenly the economy turns and your prey turns around and eats your leg...

Report: VW Board Votes to Axe Porsche Panamera, Cayenne Popular SUV and impressive sedan will run out current life-cycles, but won't live on Be the First to Comment!By Colum Wood, Tuesday September 1 2009 , As: BlueSport Roadster, cayenne, ferdinand piech, german cars, panamera, Porsche, SEDANS, SUVs, Volkswagen, vw Porsche’s new owners at Volkswagen are aiming to make some big changes at the German sport car maker, including eliminating any models that aren’t sports cars. That’s right, both the Cayenne SUV and Panamera sedan are reportedly on the chopping block, according to a recent report in the U.K.’s CAR magazine. In an article an unnamed source says that Volkswagen’s board has voted to kill off both models after their current life-cycles, which should stretch until around 2016. “VW Group has plenty of SUVs and saloons [sedans], it doesn’t need Porsche to build them,” said an inside source to CAR. VW and Porsche CEO Ferdinand Piech is leading the charge to return Porsche to a pure sports car company and leave sedans and SUVs to other areas of the 10-brand conglomerate. For our part, we hope the Panamera can live on in a second generation vehicle as some sort of stylish Audi. This move is bolstering rumors that Porsche will bring to market a car something along the lines of VW’s BlueSport Roadster Concept, that fits in below the Boxster. Ideally this new model would keep the Porsche brand pure, while enabling high volume sales. [Source: CAR via LeftLaneNews]

Can I have some popcorn, this looks like a fun show!

"This move is bolstering rumors that Porsche will bring to market a car something along the lines of VW’s BlueSport Roadster Concept, that fits in below the Boxster. Ideally this new model would keep the Porsche brand pure, while enabling high volume sales"

Intersting, Right now the Entry level Porsche is a Used Porsche. I guess they are trying to recreat the 914/924 magic?

*edit: the Bluesport looks like a Miata and a Boxster had a baby.

I don't know the sales figures but in the case of the Cayenne it sounds like a "cutting off your nose to spite your face" kind of thing.

So is the VW BlueSport going to be produced as well as the entry level bluesport style Porsche? The pictures I have found of the VW BS look like a mid engine car, would be perfect for Porsche to build on this concept.

ZOOMX5 wrote: So is the VW BlueSport going to be produced as well as the entry level bluesport style Porsche? The pictures I have found of the VW BS look like a mid engine car, would be perfect for Porsche to build on this concept.

From the short amount of research I have done just now, it is a Deisel Mid Engine.

EricM wrote: From the short amount of research I have done just now, it is a Deisel Mid Engine.

Correct. If it comes out, I will be talking to the loan officer at my local credit union.

I thought the Cayenne was already a shared VW/Porsche platform anyway (Touareg). What sense does it make for VW to cut a profitable vehicle that's already sharing development costs with one of their vehicles anyway?

Josh wrote: I thought the Cayenne was already a shared VW/Porsche platform anyway (Touareg). What sense does it make for VW to cut a profitable vehicle that's already sharing development costs with one of their vehicles anyway?

The platform is shared but all electronics, and running gear are marque specific. Audi and VW share more.

To me, it sounds like this is the end of Porsche as we know and love it. VW and Audi can't build a reliable car that I'd ever buy.

amg_rx7 wrote: To me, it sounds like this is the end of Porsche as we know and love it. VW and Audi can't build a reliable car that I'd ever buy.

Funny, I feel exactly the opposite. This is the end of the Porsche I can't stand.

Though I do agree, I'd never buy a VW or Audi.

As a thirty-year plus Porschephile, I've been following this but haven't been successful in finding authoritative information. However, for some context:

[All off the top of my head without fact checking]

The Piechs are the other half of the Porsche family (I'm talking people now, not cars or companies). I think the Piechs were Ferry Porsche's wife's family. Back in the 1960s the third generation of the Porsche family started working at the company. "Butzi" Porsche did the exterior design work on the 904. Ferdinand Piech ran the racing department from about 1965 to around 1971 (think 906, 910, 907, 908, and 917). There was quite a power struggle between the Porsche side and the Piech side. For example, Piech seemed to be in maybe too much of a hurry to replace the 904, designed by Butzi, with Piech's own 906. Eventually, the power struggle became a threat to the success of the company, and even its' survival. Ferry Porsche led an agreement that forced ALL family members to retire from direct management positions with Porsche. Ferry retired as president but remained chairman. Butzi started his own design firm. Piech went to work at Audi, eventually becoming CEO and chairman of Volkswagen Audi Group (VAG).

I think Ernst Fuhrman was the first non-family president. He ended the 917 program and focused Porsche's racing on developing the 911, creating the 911 RSR. I think he was still president into the 935 era. Fuhrman also predicted the end of the 911 and initiated the 928 as its' replacement. But how much of each of those was Fuhrman's decision and how much was the families' influence I don't know.

The Porsche and Piech families have always had huge personal holdings in the german auto industry. Ferdinand Sr. received huge amounts of Volkswagen stock for designing the Beetle and its' factory. Obviously the family retained huge amounts of Porsche stock. Neither VAG nor Porsche ever owned the other's stock. But the two familes have always had considerable influence on VW and outright control of Porsche. Porsche did a lot of engineering work for VW (recall that Porsche makes twice as much money as an engineering firm than it makes building cars). The 914 was a Porsche-designed replacement for the Karman Ghia, and VW sold Porsche bare chassis for Porsche to build the 914/6. The 924 was a Porsche-engineered replacement for the 914 that VAG cancelled. So Porsche bought the rights and built it, well, it was built by VW for Porsche using an Audi engine. Audi (VAG) built the 944 using a Porsche-built engine. (The 968 was built entirely by Porsche). In the 1990s Porsche built one of the Audi RS cars. VAG used to call their dual-clutch semi-manual a "Tiptronic" which is a Porsche trademark. The Toureg and Cayenne we all know are shared platforms. I have a personal theory (with nothing to back it up) that the hugely successful Audi R8 and R10 race cars are Porsche engineered. Point being, the two companies have never been directly linked but have always been very closely intertwined.

Anyway, I wonder how much of the inter-family power struggle continues to this day. Ferdinand Piech has huuuge holdings of VAG stock, and I think he's the largest individual owner of Porsche stock. I think the reason Porsche dropped out of European prototype racing (what became the Carrera GT) was Piech's decision to not compete with the Audi R8/R10. (I really want to know how much commonality there is between the R8 and the Carera GT). I think that is a reflection of the reality that, while VAG and Porsche are (were?) independent, they were influenced at the top in a synergistic way. In other words, neither company was going to do something that would have a negative influence on the other.

But Porsche's move recently to try to gain control of VAG, hmmm... Was this perhaps more inter-family rivalry? The Porsche side impinging on Piech's VAG empire? And is the current counter-move Piech giving tit-for-tat? Is Piech trying to pull Porsche back into his personal fiefdom? These are the things that make you go "hmmmmm..."

Comments?

David

Corporate structure, brands and companies

Audi, Lamborghini, Bentley, Bugatti, SEAT, Škoda, Volkswagen, Scania were current brands

Audi R8, Lamborghini, Bugatti and Porsche... you would think someone would want to build a performance car.

Josh wrote: I thought the Cayenne was already a shared VW/Porsche platform anyway (Touareg). What sense does it make for VW to cut a profitable vehicle that's already sharing development costs with one of their vehicles anyway?

...and yet no one bought the Touareg and plenty of people bought the Cayenne.

This seems like executives crippling themselves witht heir principles. While a Porsche SUV is blasphemy, it pumped a LOT of capital in to that company.

I dunno.

gamby wrote: ...and yet no one bought the Touareg and plenty of people bought the Cayenne.

No kidding... I see Cayenne's all the time... at least one a day... and not just the mundane base and S models, but often Turbo's and occasionally Turbo S's as well...

Touaregs are rare... and I see MG's running around more often than the V10 TDI version.

amg_rx7 wrote: To me, it sounds like this is the end of Porsche as we know and love it. VW and Audi can't build a reliable car that I'd ever buy.

Plus Eleventybillion

personally, I am glad they paring Porsche back down to a sports car builder

mad_machine wrote: personally, I am glad they paring Porsche back down to a sports car builder

Same here, I would like to see the 356 come back and still be a flat 4 behind the rear axle...

I anxiously await the new 914 2 liter but I suspect it is as likely as the new RX3 Mazda

I've been reading CAR for close to 40 years....alright, maybe 35, and they run articles like this every now and again. That is, articles that say manufacturer X is about to do a complete 180 degree shift.....and three years later the mag is proved DEAD WRONG. They wrote several articles outlining how BL was FINALLY going to turn itself around, how Saab and/or Volvo is/was going down the tubes. and how Jaguar is/was on it's last legs and/or how the newest Jag model was needed to save the company.

I love CAR, and still buy and read it...occasionally. But their "forcasting skills" are hit and miss.

Having said all that, with all these sports car makers starting to make high end 4 door sedans, you have to wonder how large the market is and whether it will last until this recession is really over. 2009 is looking a lot like 1972-73, at least for cars. That is, I think we may be at a high water mark, and we may soon see a reversal in the market. SEE, I can come up with weird "predictions", too.