VW/AUDI enthusiasts, please join me inside......

roninsoldier83 wrote: For comparison, it looks like the S3 starts at $42,900, but at my local dealerships, I don't see one listed for less than $46k.

That's why you go to the dealership and special order exactly what you want.

z31maniac wrote:

roninsoldier83 wrote: For comparison, it looks like the S3 starts at $42,900, but at my local dealerships, I don't see one listed for less than $46k.

That's why you go to the dealership and special order exactly what you want.

Agreed. You'll probably have an easier time with that at an Audi dealership vs finding a Golf R at a VW dealer right now anyway, as the Golf R seems to be in higher demand. According to Truecar, they claim the average 2017 Golf R selling price (brand new) is around 0.34% ABOVE MSRP (2016 R was apparently selling for 3.24% above MSRP) right now, whereas the S3 is selling for around 5.8% BELOW MSRP. With the mark-ups on the Golf R vs the discounts on the S3, they'll probably be even closer in price.

Although the fact that the Golf R has a higher demand in the first place should be an indicator as to which car is better to drive and easier live with... If you're a smaller/shorter guy, that doesn't need a usable back seat, you have no dog, you don't make regular trips to Home Depot/Lowes, and you don't mind the lighter/more filtered steering and lack of a 3rd pedal option, I can see the appeal of the S3 on looks alone. Otherwise, I still contend that the Golf R is the better setup for most people.

Although you've mentioned that you don't like the looks of the VW (more than once), so all of that is irrelevant. This comment was more geared towards others that might be choosing between these 2 cars and don't mind the looks of the VW. Me personally? I'll admit that the Audi is the prettier car, but I actually like the look of a nice hatchback.

Bold move by VW raising the prices after the diesel thing. Of course, they have to pay for that, somehow.

Brett_Murphy wrote: Bold move by VW raising the prices after the diesel thing. Of course, they have to pay for that, somehow.

I agree. Glad I bought my base 2016 manual before the 2017's were launched.

Looks like they've taken the previously optional DCC/Nav/19" wheel package and made it standard for 2017. They've also added a couple of "upgrades" per se from the prior year: the 19" Pretoria wheels (vs last year's "Cadiz" style wheels) and an in-dash performance monitor (digital gauges, like most "sporty" cars seem to have these days). I think the Pretoria wheels weigh about ~2 lbs less per corner and certainly look better, but I'm pretty sure they're still cast and I don't think they're necessarily worth the price increase.

roninsoldier83 wrote: Although the fact that the Golf R has a higher demand in the first place should be an indicator as to which car is better to drive and easier live with... If you're a smaller/shorter guy, that doesn't need a usable back seat, you have no dog, you don't make regular trips to Home Depot/Lowes, and you don't mind the lighter/more filtered steering and lack of a 3rd pedal option, I can see the appeal of the S3 on looks alone. Otherwise, I still contend that the Golf R is the better setup for most people.

Haha, that's pretty much me!

Only 5'8", no kids, no dog, I rent so no need for Home Depot/Lowe's trips, and I specifically want a DCT transmission.

The only reason I haven't already ditched the BRZ is because it looks so good in black, lowered on the 18x9.5" RPF1s.

But the 255/35 Star Specs and coilovers means it rides like crap.

I have a friend with a 6sp Golf R. She had two clutches fail before her first oil change. Different failure mechanisms. I'm not saying it's a problem, but it has my eyebrows raised.

Edit: and yes, I saw you want a DCT. It's just that VW has specifically in very big bold writing both times stated that the fixes were NOT under warranty but rather 'good will' fixes.

z31maniac wrote:

roninsoldier83 wrote: Although the fact that the Golf R has a higher demand in the first place should be an indicator as to which car is better to drive and easier live with... If you're a smaller/shorter guy, that doesn't need a usable back seat, you have no dog, you don't make regular trips to Home Depot/Lowes, and you don't mind the lighter/more filtered steering and lack of a 3rd pedal option, I can see the appeal of the S3 on looks alone. Otherwise, I still contend that the Golf R is the better setup for most people.

Haha, that's pretty much me! Only 5'8", no kids, no dog, I rent so no need for Home Depot/Lowe's trips, and I specifically want a DCT transmission. The only reason I haven't already ditched the BRZ is because it looks so good in black, lowered on the 18x9.5" RPF1s. But the 255/35 Star Specs and coilovers means it rides like crap.

Haha!! Well, that explains it!

6'2", wife/2 kids, border collie, home owner with a big backyard.

For me these days, a car like the BRZ would have to be relegated to 3rd car status! Good luck on your search! Although if I didn't need 4 doors and desire AWD for the snow, I might be looking in a different direction for a daily driver.

Knurled wrote:

NEALSMO wrote: In reply to z31maniac: It uses the Haldex system that came out in the TT originally. From what I understand it's a FWD bias system that will kick in the rear wheels when necessary vs the "true" Quattro that is a full time AWD system. I imagine it would only be noticeable when driving on track at the limit.

It's just Audi's name for all wheel drive. The "true" Quattro setup is all open diffs with manual locks, so you can have bad handling and atrocious handling.

"True" quattro means a longitudinal-mount engine where the front halfshafts come out of the side of the transmission. It hasn't had 3 open diffs since the mid 80s, everything since then has had at least a Torsen center.

Haldex is a transverse-mount system that primarily drives the front wheels. In the earlier cars, the fundamental driving dynamics were that of a FWD car. I haven't driven the more modern ones enough to say, though. "True" quattro cars have a fairly unique feel, different from either a RWD or a FWD car.

I'm really not a fan of the current A3, it's the only Audi I've driven that I actively hated. I haven't driven an S3, the drivetrain swap may help with some of the parts I disliked (shift points, throttle sensitivity, etc), but it's got the same ergonomics that drive me nuts whenever the dealer gives me an A3 as a loaner.

mazdeuce wrote: I have a friend with a 6sp Golf R. She had two clutches fail before her first oil change. Different failure mechanisms. I'm not saying it's a problem, but it has my eyebrows raised. Edit: and yes, I saw you want a DCT. It's just that VW has specifically in very big bold writing both times stated that the fixes were NOT under warranty but rather 'good will' fixes.

My 2016 Golf R manual only has ~9000 miles on it, but not one problem with the clutch... Although I know they're pretty weak from the factory. My Golf R is stock, but I know people tuning them pretty much need a new clutch, as the Golf R won't handle the extra torque from a tune; for reference, according to APR, a tune produces an additional 68-109 FT-LBS of torque (66-93 HP), depending on calibration. I think they've specifically made "low torque" maps, just for the manual Golf R, to avoid needing a new clutch.

However, clutches failing in stock form doesn't seem to be a common occurrence on the Golf R, at least not that I've seen on the VW forums... I would be curious about your friend's driving habits and possible modifications (if any).

Although it's fairly irrelevant to the OP, as the DSG has a good bit more torque holding headroom vs the clutch in the Golf R. However, the DSG services aren't exactly cheap...

Stock car.Two autocrosses on RE71's. Not entireley certain she has shared that with VW. She bought the car to replace her TT that she loved and autocrossed for years. She loves the car but is coming to a sad realization that she may not be able to autocross it as it sits, which kind of sucks considering what VW says the car is.

codrus wrote:

Knurled wrote:

NEALSMO wrote: In reply to z31maniac: It uses the Haldex system that came out in the TT originally. From what I understand it's a FWD bias system that will kick in the rear wheels when necessary vs the "true" Quattro that is a full time AWD system. I imagine it would only be noticeable when driving on track at the limit.

It's just Audi's name for all wheel drive. The "true" Quattro setup is all open diffs with manual locks, so you can have bad handling and atrocious handling.

"True" quattro means a longitudinal-mount engine where the front halfshafts come out of the side of the transmission. It hasn't had 3 open diffs since the mid 80s, everything since then has had at least a Torsen center. Haldex is a transverse-mount system that primarily drives the front wheels. In the earlier cars, the fundamental driving dynamics were that of a FWD car. I haven't driven the more modern ones enough to say, though. "True" quattro cars have a fairly unique feel, different from either a RWD or a FWD car. I'm really not a fan of the current A3, it's the only Audi I've driven that I actively hated. I haven't driven an S3, the drivetrain swap may help with some of the parts I disliked (shift points, throttle sensitivity, etc), but it's got the same ergonomics that drive me nuts whenever the dealer gives me an A3 as a loaner.

The S3/Golf R's Haldex system does feel very much like a FWD car with considerably more traction. I've owned 2 WRX's & an STI in the past, and you could definitely feel more of a rear wheel shove from those cars... I've also driven the EVO X several times & just recently a Focus RS; those cars really rotate by way of the rear wheels in a way that really makes the Golf R/S3 feel like a FWD car by comparison.

Golf R feels more like a GTI with more traction under acceleration. My old A3 worked great in the snow- very seamless; but for performance driving, the above listed competitor cars handle more like "traditional" AWD cars. Same can be said for Audi's Torsen based Quattro setups.

mazdeuce wrote: Stock car.Two autocrosses on RE71's. Not entireley certain she has shared that with VW. She bought the car to replace her TT that she loved and autocrossed for years. She loves the car but is coming to a sad realization that she may not be able to autocross it as it sits, which kind of sucks considering what VW says the car is.

Ouch! I've never tracked or autoX'd my Golf R, but I have played around in the local canyons a few times without an issue.

There are several clutch upgrades available if she doesn't mind spending a bit of money. Some of which utilize the car's OEM dual mass flywheel. I think one of them just uses the OEM clutch disc with the combination of the RS3's pressure plate; supposed to hold considerably more torque.

Although a couple of autoX events shouldn't destroy the stock clutch either way. Doesn't seem to be a common problem on the MK7 boards.

roninsoldier83 wrote: Haha!! Well, that explains it! 6'2", wife/2 kids, border collie, home owner with a big backyard. For me these days, a car like the BRZ would have to be relegated to 3rd car status! Good luck on your search! Although if I didn't need 4 doors and desire AWD for the snow, I might be looking in a different direction for a daily driver.

I don't need 4 doors or AWD, but I kind of want a boost buggy. I just want something quick, nice, and be pleasant to commute in. The BRZ is so slow and has a TERRIBLE stereo.

I'd like an STi, but they haven't fitted an FA-series motor to them yet and there doesn't seem to be any indication of when they will.

The thought of an EVO or Focus RS would be awesome, but I've heard they both ride super harsh on the street. And I've read the EVO is pretty cheap on the inside, thin paint, etc.

The easy answer is to just buy another 5.0 like the 2013 GT I had. Fast, comfortable, can be ordered with a good stereo.........but I'm not sure I want to tread the same path again.

I'd also like an ND Miata because I miss having a convertible.

I think I'm mainly just bored with the BRZ having it owned it for 2 years now. It's the longest I've kept a car in about 7-8 years.

z31maniac wrote: I don't need 4 doors or AWD, but I kind of want a boost buggy. I just want something quick, nice, and be pleasant to commute in. The BRZ is so slow and has a TERRIBLE stereo. I'd like an STi, but they haven't fitted an FA-series motor to them yet and there doesn't seem to be any indication of when they will. The thought of an EVO or Focus RS would be awesome, but I've heard they both ride super harsh on the street. And I've read the EVO is pretty cheap on the inside, thin paint, etc. The easy answer is to just buy another 5.0 like the 2013 GT I had. Fast, comfortable, can be ordered with a good stereo.........but I'm not sure I want to tread the same path again. I'd also like an ND Miata because I miss having a convertible. I think I'm mainly just bored with the BRZ having it owned it for 2 years now. It's the longest I've kept a car in about 7-8 years.

I hear ya, buddy, I have the same problem when it comes to getting bored and getting rid of cars! In the last 17 years, I've owned 19 cars... I've really got to kick this habit!

I you are interested in the STI, have you considered the regular WRX? I owned a 2015 WRX that I traded in on my Golf R. Wrote an in depth review about it quite a while back:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/in-depth-comparison-from-2015-wrx-6mt-to-2016-golf-r-6mt/117375/page1/

^^^For what it's worth, I traded my 2015 Audi A3 in my 2015 WRX. Despite buying the A3 for well below invoice, I still took a bath on that one! To say that my ownership experience with the A3 was "less than pleasant" would be an understatement. Yes, I preferred the lowly WRX over the A3; in a variety of ways! Most of the cars I've sold over the years I just got bored with; my A3 was an exception to that rule- I legitimately didn't like that car. Also wrote a very long winded comparo about the 2 on another forum that I'm happy to copy/paste if you would like.

Because of some of the things I quickly came to dislike about my old A3, I can say with all confidence that I would likely buy an STI over the S3. Even with the old EJ257 motor.

Either way, if you enjoy the BRZ, but want something boosted, the VA chassis WRX offers huge bang for your buck. These guys did a great comparison on the 2 a while back:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkWyyY718AM

I owned my WRX for about a year, and I've owned my Golf R for about 6-7 months now. The VW is a nicer car and a better daily driver. It's also probably a bit quicker from a rolling start and has better brakes for canyon carving. Overall, the Golf R feels more refined than my WRX, but honestly, if I didn't want another hatchback, I don't know if I could have justified buying the Golf R, because you get SO much for your money with the 2015+ WRX.

I wrote that review of both of them after not owning the Golf R for very long... I would still say most everything in there is true, except that I think the WRX might have actually been a tad bit more fun in the canyons if I'm being honest with myself. The WRX felt just a bit more raw, but was still an excellent daily driver!

My wife liked my 2015 WRX so much that after I got my Golf R, she missed my WRX and traded her 2013 WRX in on a 2016 WRX! If that doesn't speak volumes, I don't know what does.

Clearly, if you plan on tracking the car, the STI has the beefier drivetrain that makes more sense. But if it's just your daily, the WRX will give you ~90% of the thrills, but being an easier car to live with (way less turbo lag & a bit smoother suspension), for substantially less money. Really a great value for the money.

I also like the ND Miata. I've been debating adding one to my garage. I've narrowed it down to either the ND or an AP2 S2000. Been a tough choice.

I've also driven the last gen 5.0 Mustang GT, as well as the 2015+ Mustang GT. New car is much nicer, smoother and seems easier to live with... but I had more fun pitching around the old live rear axle car in the canyons! Truth be told, I drove the new Camaro SS recently and preferred it over both of the Stangs... Actually drove it back to back with the ND Miata! Link:

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/two-opposing-test-drives-today-2016-miata-and-2016-camaro-ss/119392/page1/

Z31, I test drove an Evo X and actually walked away underwhelmed mostly because I expected a super raw machine and it wasn't bad at all IMO. I got an s2000 instead and that seemed considerably more raw to me. You should go lightly used with how often you switch cars... Try a few year old Evo MR out. What coilovers are on the BRZ? Quality dampers ride well even with high rates but you gotta pay to play.

I hear you on the STI thing, I'd be interested in with the FA motor. I'm done with EJ25s.

^It's on Ground Controls, I don't buy cheap parts. It's my 3rd vehicle with a Ground Control setup. It would ride better if I'd pull the rears apart and put 1" shorter springs on it to gain some travel back.

ron, thanks for all the insight. I need to take the BRZ in this weekend for it's last free oil change, so maybe I'll grab a sales guy and see if I can take a WRX and an STi for a test drive.