What car thread v Duke.2

Woollgathering here, mostly to record my own thought process, so feel free to disregard the wall of text.  I've got the itch, but I'm a year away from buying a car for myself.  Though with my glacial pace of getting things done, it's time to start strategizing.

Here are my priorities:

• Budget: $40,000 +/-
• Midsize (see comments below)
• Sedan or wagon (no _UVs of any flavor)
• AWD preferred but not a requirement; RWD good; FWD not preferred but not a deal breaker
• Automatic preferred, manual good; CVT is a deal breaker
• Function - sporty, comfortable daily driver that will seat 4 adults from time to time
   
• Commentary:
  
  New is preferred; very lightly used is not off the table, but it is nice to get a current car with 2-digit mileage once in a while.  I'll be keeping it for at least 10 years, and probably more.
  
  This car will replace my current TSX, which replaced my E46.  That's a good size.  A little bigger wouldn't hurt but isn't necessary.  Don't really want to go smaller than that.  DW's S60 is a good size.  We have the Concert Coach for long trips / many people.
  
  It needs to be fun to drive.  Decent power, good handling and brakes.  Does not need to ride like a cloud, but shouldn't rattle you with every bump.  Looking for a nice GT feel - not hardcore performance, but not for the Silver Set, either.
  
  In my advancing age, I'm OK with an automatic trans as long as it doesn't suck.  Smooth and prompt shifts are a must.  No problem driving a manual, but there is a benefit to having DW be able to drive my car stress-free.  I have the Manic Miata for when I want to get my 3-pedal yayas out.
  
  Most of the time it will just have me in it for suburban commuting.  It will frequently need to carry DW and I.  It will occasionally need to carry DW, DDs #1 and/or #2 (both adults), and I.
  
  Nav is nice and is pretty much standard in this price range anyway, but not required.  Blind spot warnings are nice.  Active cruise control is nice.
  
  Comfortable, leather seating is strongly preferred.  Heated seats are pretty much required.  Heated steering wheel is awesome but I can live without it.  But in general, it should be of pleasant quality inside, though it doesn't need to be sumptuous.
   
• Random prejudices:
  
  I won't own a Mercedes.
  
  Don't really have anything against Toyota / Lexus as companies, but I really really really don't like their styling.  At all.  Ditto Nissan.  I would consider an Infiniti; personally, I find them pretty boring, but at least not actively hideous.  Plus the CVT thing probably puts them out of contention.

I know, a lot of cars meet this description, and in a wide range of manufacturers and models.  Here are some that have caught my eye:

• Volvo V60 AWD - this is what got me started, because there are still a few leftover 2017s to be had, including some in R-design trim... which puts out almost 300 hp and with negotiation should be in budget.  I like driving DW's 2017 S60 a lot.  More power would only make it more fun.  Handsome car, nice feature set, a little dated.  2019s are a thorough redesign and they look even better, but that will add cost.
   
• Alfa Giulia Q4 AWD - we've discussed at length why this is a bad idea.  Discounts are pretty deep.  The heart wants what the heart wants.  But the brain also wants to make sure I can own this car for 10+ years.
   
• Jag XE / XF AWD - these are only on my radar because they popped up in my searches, but damn, those are nice looking cars.  XE is probably big enough, but lower-spec XFs are knocking on the budget cap, too.  I'd have to drive them and see.  Probably not as risky as the Alfa, but probably not as exciting, either.  Available in a wagon, but rarer and significantly more expensive.
   
• BMW 330ix / 430ix GT / Touring - almost bought a 330ix when we bought the S60.  We both liked it.  I know, I know, modern BMWs.  Maybe they've lost their edge a bit, but that was a nice-driving car for what I need it to do.  Also available in a wagon.  But... 10-15 year old turbo 4 BMW?
   
• Buick Regal GS AWD - I was interested in these online, but they didn't start shipping until March of this year, so we didn't get to see one while shopping for DW.  Looks pretty nice in pictures and specs, but I'd need to get up close, and drive it.  I suspect this will wind up like the Fusion Sport we drove - nice, quick, but not interesting enough to be worth busting out the checkbook.
   
• Dodge Challenger T/A or R/T - the outlier.  Two doors would work for most of what I need it to do.  Charger is OK but doesn't grab me like the Challenger.  It's huge.  It's not fancy.  There are 15 - fifteen - different trims to choose from, and frankly, it's confusing.  Not sure which one is designed to handle best.  V8 puts AWD out of the picture.  Budget puts me somewhere between the higher trims of the smaller V8s, and the lower trims of the 392s.  Frankly, even with an auto, it might take DW a little pep talk to even try driving it.  Would I be tired of driving it every day in 5 years?  Would I be able to afford driving it every day in 5 years?

So, if you're still with me, what are your thoughts?

What about Korea?  How nice are the Stinger or Genesis with all the options?

Chevrolet SS?  If you want to talk about stuff with big discounts, these don't seem to sell at all.  Maybe there's a reason, maybe not, but there are still new ones from years ago sitting at dealers I think.

The Chevy SS is always a good contender, but the "downside" is while the Camaro and the Corvette were getting the LT1, Chevy kept sticking the LS3 in the SS. Not a bad engine, but "outdated" at that point.

I've become a huge fan of the Volvo V60, just by seeing it in it's XC style. But hell, Volvo in general is just looking outstanding these days.

I know Buick came out recently with their wagon, but beyond that I haven't heard a single peep about it.

In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :

The Stinger has real promise.  DW is not a fan of the Korean cars (or, rather, the stereotypical Korean car drivers), but I would talk her into test driving a Stinger.  It may be larger than I need, though.  Says the guy with the Challenger on his list.

In reply to FuzzWuzzy :

The V60 is very nice looking.  I'd skip the XC version and get an honest-to-goodness wagon.  The coming 2019 model looks even nicer, but A) it's more expensive, and B) it would have stuff that wasn't available on DW's 2017 S60.  I wish I was ready now, because I'd lowball the hell out of a few leftover 2017 V60 R-designs, and see who would limbo the lowest.

The Buick wagon looked good until they tried to go the XC route with 2" lift and stick-on tupperware.

I think your pace will be very good for evaluating how the Stinger and similar yet announced Hyundai version are evolving.  

First though was Stinger, 3 series, Volvo. 

How about an Acura TLX V6.  Reliable as an anvil, nice place to be, fast and sporty enough, non CVT, can have AWD, all the tech stuff you could want, and reasonably priced.  

Sonic said:

How about an Acura TLX V6.  

That's an excellent suggestion. The TLX V6 SH-AWD was exactly where we started out when we were shopping for DW last fall.  My TSX was originally her car; we've both loved it for 14 years, and it's really been extremely reliable (I did just have to get the timing chain and related hardware replaced, but that's another story).

The TLX specs look good on paper.  The TLX pictures look... meh, and it's not really better looking in person.  But driving it just didn't feel involving.  The control inputs are unispiring, the console too fiddly, the interior design is busy (though thankfully the outside is not as bad as it could be, at all).  It was quick, but didn't really feel quicker than the T5 S60 (no idea what actual numbers are).  Overall it just drove more heavily and less invitingly than the Volvo... and what does that say about it?

Turbo Mazda6?

I've not driven them, and have heard very little about them, though.

By the time I got to the "Random prejudices" part of your post, I was thinking, "This man wants a Genesis G80 Sport."  I'm not sure how it intersects with your attraction to a Challenger, but I think you should at least try one out.

In reply to Stealthtercel :

I’ll have a look. I don’t have anything against The Genesis cars. I know depreciation is not their friend, but it isn’t anything’s friend in this sector. 

I’m going to go ahead and say s550 4matic.  I mean,  I remember the thread where the guy started off saying he didn’t want a minivan, then like 7 pages later bought a minivan.   

Sounds like genesis g70 should be on your radar.  Shorter wheelbase sibling of the stinger.  Same engine choices.

Good styling (in my view).  Can be had with manual trans or awd.

I'd sure rather go with the koreans over Volvo for 10+ years ownership for total cost of ownership.

How much is a Tesla model 3? 

Genesis G 70  is worth a long, hard look. It starts @ $35k. Same platform as the Stinger, but a bit smaller. Available with a manual. Nearly identical dimensions to DW's Volvo. Most reviews are saying that it's basically what the 3 Series used to be before BMW lost their way. Also, the warranty is far superior to any of the Germans: 5 year/60k mile basic warranty, 10 year/100k powertrain warranty would probably cover you for your entire ownership.

You don't have Cadillacs on your list. Your budget would buy a very nice ATS, but they might be too small (try one and see). There are a few lightly used CTS VSports dropping into your price range and you'd get 430hp/420ft-lbs with a decent, RWD chassis. There might be more available in your price range by the time you're ready to buy. You'd get the muscle of the Challenger in a more grown up/luxurious package.

In reply to STM317 :

This is why I read these threads. The manual G70 looks like a fantastic car for the money. We're adding it to our list. Thanks. 

Since I drive an Infiniti, I'll put my vote in for them.  I bought mine 6 months ago.  My criteria were almost precisely what yours were...sedan, RWD preferred (though I looked at tons of FWD), really nice inside, sporty, reliable, heated seats were a must, heated wheel/ventilated seats were a "want" not need.  My budget though was half of yours, around $20k max.

I wound up spending only $15k and got a CPO '13 G37.  It uses the tried and true VQ 3.7L and 7 speed auto, so no CVT, no turbo, no direct injection.  It's basically a 4 door 370Z and it feels like it.  Really fun to drive.  It's fast, has steering feel far better than many modern electronic assisted steering, great reflexes, very comfy inside and cruises the highway with ease.  I know some criticize the VQ for being rough at high rpm, but I love the exhaust growl from idle to about 5000rpm.  I do mostly highway driving, so even mpg isn't horrific...I get about 25-27mpg.  There are a few negatives such as requiring premium unleaded.  However, the biggest negative for me is that even though it's very late '13 (went into service in late '14), the platform shows its' age...if that matters to you...mostly on the technology side.  The center stack/HVAC/stereo stuff looks a bit dated, though it functions very intuitively which is great.  However, the '17 Nissan Versa base model I rented a few weeks ago has better technology inside.  The G37 can't stream bluetooth at all, nor is there a 3.5mm aux port to plug into.  Blows my mind.  The backup camera works fine, but the quality is poor (again, the Versa rental I had was far better).  No 3 blink lane change, you have to hold the stalk up.  The cupholders up front are ridiculous.  Little stuff like that.  But the driving experience is phenomenal. 

If the G37 is too old, how about the Q sedan that replaced it?  Much more modern, available w/400hp and still uses a conventional auto, no CVT.

In reply to STM317 :

Thanks!  Both of those are pretty nice looking cars.  I'll look into the G70.  I love the idea of the CTS-V, and I even like the styling of the older ones and am always amazed that they are Cadillacs - when I see one pass by on the road.  Not sure if I want one of my own.  The white car in your pic is the current V-sport version?  Looks like they've cleaned it up and toned it down just a touch.  That's pretty handsome.

In reply to Klayfish :

Wow, $15k for that car sounds like a steal.  I drove a 2004-5 G35 when I was shopping for my E46 in 2006.  I realize at this point that it is an entirely different car, but it didn't thrill me.  I'm also in the minority camp that dislikes the VQ exhaust note.  All that being said, if it uses a TC auto, I'll give the modern version another shot.  Thanks.

Duke said:

In reply to STM317 :

Thanks!  Both of those are pretty nice looking cars.  I'll look into the G70.  I love the idea of the CTS-V, and I even like the styling of the older ones and am always amazed that they are Cadillacs - when I see one pass by on the road.  Not sure if I want one of my own.  The white car in your pic is the current V-sport version?  Looks like they've cleaned it up and toned it down just a touch.  That's pretty handsome.

Correct. V Sport is the more subtle performance package and is new for the current generation CTS. Kind of the M235i to BMW's M2, or the Focus ST to the more hardcore Focus RS. Instead of the rip snorting 650hp V8 and grilles/vents/scoops that are turned to 11, you get a 430hp twin turbo V6, slightly softer suspension, and more sedate bodywork. Should still be plenty of giddyup for a daily driver. Caddy's like to depreciate, but these were originally 60k cars which means it can take some patience to find one in budget with low miles (There are a better selection in the low-mid 30s if you're ok with 15-40k miles). But if you drive one and think it's what you want, you'll have some time to prowl around for the right deal.

Well, the VQ is long gone from the current Q.   It's a turbo V6 now.  Haven't driven it, but from what I've read it's pretty nice.

Maybe a good question to ask yourself is where on the sporty vs. luxury vs. comfort balance do you want to fall?  When I was shopping this segment, there are some hella sweet FWD cars that would have fit my criteria well.  The Accord V6 is fabulous...sporty, fast, reliable as an anvil.  Haven't driven the newest generation Accord, but it's supposed to be even better.  The Korean cars are great luxury rides...Genesis, Equus, Kia Cadenza are really nice and reliable.  I love the Stinger, anxious to see how the depreciation curve continues.  One car not mentioned yet is the Toyota Avalon.  The newer ones aren't Buicks anymore, they're actually quite pleasant to drive. I really like the Volvo....I had one as a rental last February.  I put 500 miles on it and whipped on it.  Very nice car.

I've told this story before, but I test drove a bunch of cars....the Accord (I've come "this close" to buying one 4 or 5 times now), Genesis, Cadenza, Avalon, V60, loaded Altima.  They were all extremely nice and I could have been happy with any of them, especially the Accord.  My wife was along for the ride too and would be sharing the car with me.  They were all perfectly fine to drive and great places to be, but didn't light my enthusiast fire, with the exception of the Accord.  So we were left feeling a bit meh.  I then let her drive a BMW 328i.  I may as well have handed her a crack pipe.  The woman who DDs a minivan and is a conservative driver was doing 55mph in a 40mph zone and holding that speed through sweeping curves.  She got out and said, with genuine enthusiasm, "That was fun!!".   Game over.  We didn't want to take the reliability risk of the BMW, but wanted the next best alternative with the same sporty feel.  Hence the G37. 

Loving it for sure, it makes me smile every time I fire it up.  But I honestly think in the next 12 months I'll trade it in, spend a few extra bucks and find a CPO BMW so I don't have to worry about reliability.  I don't keep cars more than 2 years normally, so CPO would work for me...and she really wanted the BMW.

In reply to Klayfish :

We (and especially I) fall more on the sporty side.  DW likes comforts and conveniences, but she doesn't like a boring drive.

We had a similar experience with BMWs.  I had an E46 for 11 years, and she liked riding in it, but it was a stick so she only ever drove it once.  Last fall we walked into the best BMW dealer around and said "What's the nicest 330iX you can sell us for $40k all in?"  He had a couple of pretty loaded, sub-5k-mile program cars available in the upper $30s - basically, $11-12k off sticker.

We drove the nicer one on roads that were well suited to a sports sedan.  DW had a blast and was grinning like crazy.  We might well have bought it, exept that it was bright metallic red and had an all-black interior (including headliner) with red stitching.  It kind of screamed masculine midlife crisis.  And to get a brand new one in preferred colors, our budget meant we would have needed to de-content it too much.

Came here to say Cadillac CTS V-Sport and see it's already been mentioned. I did a bunch of research on them and aside from the CUE Navigation stuff everyone loves them. 400+ HP TT six with Brembos, magnetic dampers and a great paddle-shifting transmission. Also great leather and plenty of room inside.

I believe there is a base, then Premium and then Premium Luxury, and some come with HUD and other neat features. I know looks are subjective but I've seen a few out in the wild and they look amazing to me, I think they would definitely be worth your consideration.

Slippery said:

How much is a Tesla model 3? 

$35k~$50k depending on options.

Left-field option: Tesla Model S. You can get one of the 2013-14 ones for $40k now.