frenchyd said:
In reply to yupididit :
If you are serious about 700 horsepower you already know how. 30 years ago they were making that sort of power and running 24 hour races. But you don’t do it on a GRM budget.
Turbo’s make it a whole lot easier. I made a whisker short of 500 horsepower on the $500 budget Chump car ( now Champ car ) had. Today I could solidly exceed that 500 hp number ( but never win a race).
Big block Chevy and a bunch of nitrous or an LS with boost seem like easier ways to make 700hp but I was hoping to get some useful information on Jags. If 700hp is too much to ask how about some real detail on how to get 500hp out of one?
frenchyd said:
nimblemotorsports said:
You can take two v6 and connect them together to get a v12. It just weighs more than a single-crankshaft v12. Is weight an issue? Must not be if you want a v12!
Only like a billion v6's available.
Most V6’s are 90 degrees not the 60 degrees that make the sweet sound. Second few V6’s are all aluminum and none to my knowledge are as well constructed. ( 3 inch mains 2.30 rods. 4 bolt mains, long studs reaching almost from the crank webs )
You have trouble finding an aluminum 60-degree v6 that sounds great?? Don't need a v12 (this is not my car, but i have a mx-3 with KLDE v6 and it sounds glorious, just like this one)
Mazda KL V6 sound
Or this one, Mazda KLZE V6 sound at 7500 rpm
In reply to Racingsnake :
What do you want your Jaguar to do?
Race?
Cruise?
Show ?
As for buying a big block and stuffing it in , well it’s still a 4600 pound car with a 2:88 final drive. Don’t be surprised if you have to spend a great deal of money on that big block Chevy to go faster than stock V12 not to mention practical aspects like getting it to fit. A V12 is tightly stuffed in the engine compartment and it’s only 32 inches wide at the exhaust manifolds. Just how wide is that big block at the exhaust manifolds?
The myth of the small block swap is in plenty of junkyards. It’s a lot harder than you think or people talk about and you are using 160 horsepower to replace the original 286 horsepower V12
300 -375 horsepower small blocks are measured differently. That’s gross horsepower not net. A 1980 Corvette 350 engine is 160 horsepower and there were a lot of 305 cu in Chevy engine swaps attempted.
I’ve talked at length about how to make a V12 come alive. But I’ll walk you through it if you ask. It scares most people although it shouldn’t. It’s in unbelievably mild state of tune. With the prime goal of getting good mileage.
Yes it has all the weakness of early fuel injection so attention needs to be paid to the age of the rubber bits. Some could be 45 years old by now. Realize that in 1975 when Jaguar came out with their fuel injection most cars were still choked down with pollution controlled carbs. They slowly improved it with the last years being the best and most reliable.
frenchyd said:
In reply to yupididit :
If you are serious about 700 horsepower you already know how. 30 years ago they were making that sort of power and running 24 hour races. But you don’t do it on a GRM budget.
Turbo’s make it a whole lot easier. I made a whisker short of 500 horsepower on the $500 budget Chump car ( now Champ car ) had. Today I could solidly exceed that 500 hp number ( but never win a race).
I think you quoted the wrong person.
Also, yes we know about your twin turbo junkyard build champ car from way back when $500 bought lots of things.
One more thing, no one is swapping 160hp stock Corvette small smallblocks from 1980 into anything. LOL!
It's 2019 now, my guy
Yes all small block swaps are using engines from 1980 corvettes.
dculberson said:
Yes all small block swaps are using engines from 1980 corvettes.
I prefer 140hp dump truck engines, myself
Patrick said:
dculberson said:
Yes all small block swaps are using engines from 1980 corvettes.
I prefer 140hp dump truck engines, myself
I wouldn't mind finding a 1970 station wagon engine.
/current SBC fantasy is a 400 block and a "baby LT1" 4.3 crank, for minimal rotational inertia with minimal valve shrouding. 400 block should live just fine at 300-350hp
Apropos of thread, there is no GRM way to get a sweet sounding V12. Sweet sounding V12s are small, and GRM-enabled V12s are huge.
Want a sweet sounding V12? Find an old Ferrari. Bring a pallet of hundos. Big junk like BMWs and Jags sound awful.
In reply to Knurled. :
The real hard part on a budget is to replicate the sound of 12 Webers that have no filter.
NickD
PowerDork
6/22/19 8:50 a.m.
yupididit said:
Don't mean to break up the jaguar v12 redundancy that plagues every v12 thread but...
I got a 95 v12 Mercedes sedan for free. Once this divorce is over I'm going to MS this bitch and run straight pipes. YOLO! The Mercedes m120 is my favorite v12 and came from the factory putting down serious power. Zonda used them for a reason.
Have you seen the V12 Merc that runs around Japan with a ton camber and some absurd exhaust that makes it sound like an old F1 car?
Lordy
In reply to nimblemotorsports :
Oh man, we should start our own thread just for KL V6 sounds. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPt-f_3dpks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSFMJsjI4lA
Knurled. said:
Apropos of thread, there is no GRM way to get a sweet sounding V12. Sweet sounding V12s are small, and GRM-enabled V12s are huge.
Want a sweet sounding V12? Find an old Ferrari. Bring a pallet of hundos. Big junk like BMWs and Jags sound awful.
Excuse me sir. The m120 is a big sweet sounding v12 with some deletion of mufflers.
Fast forward to about the 45sec mark of the video.
NickD said:
yupididit said:
Don't mean to break up the jaguar v12 redundancy that plagues every v12 thread but...
I got a 95 v12 Mercedes sedan for free. Once this divorce is over I'm going to MS this bitch and run straight pipes. YOLO! The Mercedes m120 is my favorite v12 and came from the factory putting down serious power. Zonda used them for a reason.
Have you seen the V12 Merc that runs around Japan with a ton camber and some absurd exhaust that makes it sound like an old F1 car?
Lordy
Yeah the headers they put on that car is closer to $10,000 than I'd like. But yes I know very much of that car lol
cdeforrest said:
In reply to alfadriver :
Only budget friendly way I see is with 3 bikes’ worth of throttle bodies + injectors from a GSXR or similar + MS.
Idk what this guy used but it sounds good. https://youtu.be/55qfqZzpzoI
Individual throttle bodies hurt maximum horsepower. Air has mass. Starting and stopping that mass every time the intake opens reduces air flow. It’s better to have air flowing into a plenum and divert it to the open cylinder. Than to start and stop the mass. You can still “pulse” the air mass slightly, over feeding the cylinder based on intake length.
yupididit said:
Excuse me sir. The m120 is a big sweet sounding v12 with some deletion of mufflers.
Let's agree to disagree. I hate the sound of unmuffled anything. A good sounding engine is one that is extremely muffled. Gets all of the riffraff noises out, leaves behind the essence.
Knurled. said:
Apropos of thread, there is no GRM way to get a sweet sounding V12. Sweet sounding V12s are small, and GRM-enabled V12s are huge.
Want a sweet sounding V12? Find an old Ferrari. Bring a pallet of hundos. Big junk like BMWs and Jags sound awful.
A 12 cylinder of any size will sound better than a 4 or 8 cylinder. ( of any size ) simply due to the clear sound of 12 cylinders.
If and only if you are listening to exhaust out the back where you hear all the cylinders
On a V8 due to the fact that adjacent cylinders will be at 90, 180, 270 degrees apart. That produces three cylinders and a stumble. While a 12 cylinder will have 12 distinct pulses each 30 degrees apart.
Exhaust out the side you hear 1/2 of the cylinders
a 12 cylinder at 600 RPM will sound like a V8 at 1200 RPM BECAUSE YOU HEAR ALL 12 !!!!’
To hear a big ( 5-6-7 liters or bigger) 12 SCREAM , REALLY SCREAM you have to have smallish pipes and go to around 9000 RPM!!!!!!! A V 12 will go to that sort of RPM BECAUSE IT DOESNT HAVE THE SAME PISTON SPEED LIMITATION a V8 does.
A 6 liter V8 at 9000 rpm has about a 5500 feet per second peak speed. A 6 liter V12 will have only about 3200 feet per second due to the much shorter stroke. ( about 2-2&1/4” )
yupididit said:
frenchyd said:
In reply to yupididit :
If you are serious about 700 horsepower you already know how. 30 years ago they were making that sort of power and running 24 hour races. But you don’t do it on a GRM budget.
Turbo’s make it a whole lot easier. I made a whisker short of 500 horsepower on the $500 budget Chump car ( now Champ car ) had. Today I could solidly exceed that 500 hp number ( but never win a race).
I think you quoted the wrong person.
Also, yes we know about your twin turbo junkyard build champ car from way back when $500 bought lots of things.
One more thing, no one is swapping 160hp stock Corvette small smallblocks from 1980 into anything. LOL!
It's 2019 now, my guy
Have you priced E bay Turbo’s lately? A T3 is not wildly more than I paid for those junkyard Saab’s From what I’m hearing from multiple sources is they’ve improved in quality to the point where for a weekend hobbiest cars they can be a affordable alternative.
Finally the engine swap into Jaguars really started in the 1980’s.
It didn’t make sense then. Less horsepower Less torque and as far as reliability it was no better. The main issue with Jaguar reliability was ignorance. I’m not being insulting. The vast majority of mechanics tend to be Monkey see, monkey do. They watch someone else and learn.
Jaguars back then were too rare to get much exposure to. One year fewer than 1000 V12’s were made for world wide consumption. America gets slightly more than 1/2. Most of those went to California.
So they looked under the hood saw all those tubes, hoses, wires and no carburetors. Eeeeekk!!
Hey even the big boys like GROUP 44 tore off the fuel injection and replaced it with carburetors.!!!! Even though it cost them horsepower to do so.
It took nearly a decade for anyone to race the fuel injection successfully!
Hey NASCAR only recently switched to fuel injection. NHRA still hasn’t.
Its groups like GRM who really teach the mechanics the how too’s . We figure things out. Show others. Etc.
OBD2 is the short cut for lack of common knowledge. But JAGUAR’s fuel injection preceded OBD2 by over 3 decades.
