What were old Stock cars like to drive?

I was watching some black-and-white footage of late 1950s cars on a banked oval going really fast, and I thought of how very few American cars until the last 30 years impressed me with their handling. If I recall, those stock cars were body-on-frame, drum brakes, recirculating balls, no anti-sway bars, leaf springs and lousy roll cages. Formula cars of the same era were death traps, but at least they were good handling death traps. It makes me wonder, what did the stock car racers do to improve their vehicles performance and safety? Was it just pure balls o' steel? Given that fifteen years earlier some of them were making bombing raids over Germany, that question possibly answers itself.  

Having driven late 60's Formula Vee's in vintage racing, I doubt GP cars from the 50's were much better.  The vintage FV tires in the early 2000's were vastly superior in terms of tire technology, and I can't imagine adding 300 more hp to a FV, because that's basically what it would be, just with much better rear suspension.

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

They knew how to tune what they had, big sway bars and extra leaves in the springs once it became legal to do so. Heavy cars, so very little disadvantage to the live axle. Front geometry was problematic, they all had a lot of push on corner entry. Once it started to turn the long polar moment gave plenty of time to power the chassis into a "set" for the corner. General Motors' introduction of coil springs and trailing arms for their live axle was a game changer too. As for the formula cars, they did not handle as we know it today until the 1.5 liter Formula 1 in 1961 forced the issue, as well as Dunlop's R series bias ply tyres in 1960. Lack of power drove chassis development hard for a few years!

If anyone really wants to know, I can probably help someone interview old chassis builders that would know.  It might make for an interesting video since hobbyists are now buying older race cars and using them more.  I really would love a 74-75 IROC Z28 if I had the funds.  

That's a really good question. I imagine most drivers have to really throw those cars around, but let me ask around the office. There are one or two people here who know the circle track world much better than I do.

It's funny that this topic came up. I was speaking with an ARCA champion from the 1970s a couple of weeks ago about this topic. In short, they were a bear to drive. There's a reason why many of those old NASCAR stock car drivers were big guys - they had to manhandle those heavy machines without power steering. For example Tiny Lund wasn't tiny! (And, it was with good reason.)

P.S. - Many of the rules required the cars to remain stock. That didn't mean they couldn't take a blowtorch to a couple of suspension parts and bend them to make the car turn left a bit better.

If you want to know what stock car guys did back then, don't look any further than a local short track's factory stock class or even sport compact class today. Rules often require them to remain stock - or stock appearing - and you see all sorts of ingenuity. However, power steering is something today's racers enjoy.

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

I've actually driven a 55 Chevy stock car on an abandoned 1/4 pave oval...........this was in the early 80s. The car had remained unchanged since at least the mid-late 60s.

The tires were rocks in comparison to todays 200 tread wear, the steering was unbelievably heavy and the car would turn left when you let go of the wheel. The brakes needed to be managed and the car seemed to turn best on the throttle. 

The gearing was such that you could stay in one gear (3rd I think) and so you'd roll out of the throttle, get it to take a set and then power through the corner...........once you got a rhythm going it was fun.

Note I maybe did 6-8 laps because I'm not a big guy and the steering was heavy...........I started losing the rhythm. 

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

I should add that formula cars from the 50s weren't necessarily good handling................I think they were less sucky. Note I've only driven an early 60s Formula Junior so it's not much of an opinion. I'd also just hoped out of a modern single seater so the difference was glaring.

In reply to Tom1200 :

Formula Juniors run the gammit from the very worst to the best handling cars ever built, all in a 5 year span. So, no, they don't without specifics make good comparators! 

In reply to Tom1200 :

It was probably the tires that made it feel as heavy as it did.

Those cars weren't really all that heavy. I've driven 50's stock cars, never raced them, but I've built and raced 60's, 70's and 80's V8 cars. They handled better than you'd expect. You only ran a sway bar if you were stuck with stock rate springs, otherwise you'd ditch the bars and go heavy on the springs, and everybody ran power steering boxes if they were available, but removed the pump and connected the lines to each other. That was done for the fast steering rate, and once you were rolling they were easy to steer. The 70's Malibus we built were lighter than most cars on the road today, and we'd have to add a few hundred pounds of ballast to get them to the 3100lb minimum.

In reply to Peabody :

Keep in mind I weighed 112lbs when I drove it.

I grew up watching the old 55 to 57 Chevys race at Stockton 99 Speedway back in the 70s. There were a few Fords out there and one guy even had an old Studebaker Starliner Coupe, but the fastest ones were all 55 to 57 Chevys.

Some of them were actually beaten up pretty badly from being run hard every friday night. I'm sure they are all gone now.

Read Smokey Yunnick's book, Best Damn Garage In Town. It describes everything that he did to win and make the cars competitive

pilotbraden said:

Read Smokey Yunnick's book, Best Damn Garage In Town. It describes everything that he did to win and make the cars competitive

That book is at the same time a nearly unreadable tome of his conquests in no particular order and one of the most enlightening books on car science I've ever picked up.  It's brilliant and it also totally sucks.
 

It's hard to find now though.  Amazon no longer carried it the last time I looked.  Likely because it's unbelievably racist in places. 

Not sure if we have it online, but Andy Lally once told us that Cup cars drove like dump trucks. I’d believe him. 

I used to bomb around town in a '78 Delta 88. Basically, the same tech GM used in the 50s. They were not precision machines but they could be handled with finesse with enough practice. 

I used to love running cars like that, particularly down dirt roads. You don't drive them as much as control their trajectory. It's going to be sliding, you just need to know how to make it slide where you want it to. Man, that was fun. 

Much like driving a P71 in an autocross or rallycross. It may not be the fasted in the pack but damn they are fun to throw around the cones. 

I have nothing to add other than I saw a Talladega in the road today, and I recognized it instantly by the rear bumper on the front and its drooped nose.

Ford made an aero homologation special for NASCAR, it was just overshadowed by the over-the-top (literally) Mopar wing cars.

I saw one where I remember Dale Jr was driving one of his dad's early cars., not as late as 50s, but he was amazed at how easy it was to turn the wheel. He said his dad liked to drive one handed in the early years and he thought it was a joke but apparently he wasn't kidding.

In reply to Toyman! :

I've driven my Dad's near stock 1953 Mercury, a 1978 Delta 88 would be a considerable step up from the Mercury. It's tough to drive on the street, pretty sure it isn't much fun on an oval either.

A 401 CJ said:

That book is at the same time a nearly unreadable tome of his conquests in no particular order and one of the most enlightening books on car science I've ever picked up.  It's brilliant and it also totally sucks.
 

It's hard to find now though.  Amazon no longer carried it the last time I looked.  Likely because it's unbelievably racist in places. 

It used to be available on the official website as an ebook, but isn't at the moment (in fact it looks like it's moving to a new domain)...I recall the price was high for an ebook, I'd considered buying it a few times but never pulled the trigger. Amazon does have the paperback but the prices are clean into the 3-digits, which I recall is common on the used market. And yes I've heard it contains a few turdpiles of racism...

I have a signed copy of Smokey's Book.  Last time we spoke was in the Daytona Beach airport after a Pre - Daytona 500 Test Session.

He was headed to Detroit for an award's session of some type

We sat and talked about all of the progress  / changes he had seen with race cars.

Great memories.

YRMV