What did GM do that Ford missed on the Mustang? The Camaro seems to completely smoke the S550 in the steering department, even after the Mustang's 2018 refresh
What did GM do that Ford missed on the Mustang? The Camaro seems to completely smoke the S550 in the steering department, even after the Mustang's 2018 refresh
Wider tires.
In reply to Javelin :
I've been lead to believe that more rubber fixes a lot of problems. For example, widebody Challengers.
It’s not wider tires. Wider tires does not help steering feel.
The chassis stiffness is light years better in the Alpha. The nice thing is, all the chassis braces from the ATS-V will fit on the Camaro as well.
I’ve heard reports of the electronic steering in the Mustang only has one speed, so while the weight changes with effort, the delay is what makes it feel vague. It’s also what gets Cars & Coffee showiffs get in trouble. The steering can’t keep up with their efforts to counter-steer.
Lots of little things that add up that Ford didn't bother to do on the base Mustangs. If you sit in a GT350 and a regular Mustang you'd swear they were different platforms (I wouldn't say the GT350 is inferior to Z28, for example).
Things that help... Chassis stiffness, low polar moment of inertia, lower CG, better damping (GM has definitely figured this out better than Ford on the lower tier models), better bushings, higher steering ratio, lower unsprung mass... it all adds up.
racerfink said:It’s also what gets Cars & Coffee showiffs get in trouble. The steering can’t keep up with their efforts to counter-steer.
[Eddie Murphy] get the berkeley outta here![/Eddie Murphy].
EPS response time is measured in milliseconds. Driver yaw response is measured in hundreds of milliseconds.
I don't know. I've asked a similar question in the past about how modern strut based cars can be so good and I didn't get an answer that was terribly satisfying. There's nothing obviously exotic about the regular chassis/suspension. I don't think people outside of GM engineering can point to something definite which explains why the feel, controllability and handling performance of the alpha cars is what is is. If it's just stiffness, everyone else could have just made their cars stiffer. I suspect it's a lot of sweating details. Suspension competency is a thread which runs through a lot of GM models. They kind of pulled a Mazda, although Mazda seems to be walking away from it now.
If it's just stiffness, everyone else could have just made their cars stiffer.
That's probably vaguely insulting to an entire profession. I'm not in that profession so i can't say, but I'm pretty sure designing things to be stiff involves an interplay between a whole host of factors that have to be compromised to reach the happiest medium. There probably also comes a point where making things any stiffer will only have benefits for a tiny number of highly discerning people who have relatively little to do with the model's overall sales success and at that point you're just wasting money.
So i do feel like there's a decent chance it is like 80% related to stiffness of various things, but that's it's not all that simple for anyone else to just decide that there's a good enough reason to redesign any of their own product chasing that specific target that only 1% or less of buyers will care about.
Javelin said:Wider tires.
That's grip, not handling.
And while this is going on, about 20k people a year more are choosing the Mustang.
Which would suggest that the super handling capabilities are not what people are putting their money down on.
IIRC, this whole line has been going on for a very, very long time- where the GM cars out handle the Mustang, but the Mustang wins in the sales ring. Like for decades now.
AngryCorvair said:racerfink said:It’s also what gets Cars & Coffee showiffs get in trouble. The steering can’t keep up with their efforts to counter-steer.
[Eddie Murphy] get the berkeley outta here![/Eddie Murphy].
EPS response time is measured in milliseconds. Driver yaw response is measured in hundreds of milliseconds.
And the C&C mishaps I have seen suggest that the person holding the steering wheel never once thought to do anything with it.
I've yet to drive a newer Camaro OR Mustang, but the Mopars manage to have less steering feel than a 70's Imperial.
This explains some of the problems with Ford’s EPAS.
Vigo said:If it's just stiffness, everyone else could have just made their cars stiffer.
That's probably vaguely insulting to an entire profession. I'm not in that profession so i can't say, but I'm pretty sure designing things to be stiff involves an interplay between a whole host of factors that have to be compromised to reach the happiest medium. There probably also comes a point where making things any stiffer will only have benefits for a tiny number of highly discerning people who have relatively little to do with the model's overall sales success and at that point you're just wasting money.
So i do feel like there's a decent chance it is like 80% related to stiffness of various things, but that's it's not all that simple for anyone else to just decide that there's a good enough reason to redesign any of their own product chasing that specific target that only 1% or less of buyers will care about.
Why do I get the feeling you're not talking about cars. 
alfadriver said:And while this is going on, about 20k people a year more are choosing the Mustang.
IIRC, this whole line has been going on for a very, very long time- where the GM cars out handle the Mustang, but the Mustang wins in the sales ring. Like for decades now.
You could probably make this argument in the Cadillac realm as well. They out 3/5-series the 3/5-series and struggled with sales. On the muscle car side, look at Dodge sales of a 15 year old car. More broadly, crossovers/suvs vs. cars. At this point in time, the stuff we prize in a car does not sell.
In fairness, the previous gen Mustang out handled the non-1LE/ZL1/Z28 Camaro varients.
Why do I get the feeling you're not talking about cars.
LOL
I remember when i was dailying my Honda Insight, i always wanted to put a sticker on it that said 'If a Corvette is a compensation machine then what is this?'. 
alfadriver said:And while this is going on, about 20k people a year more are choosing the Mustang.
Which would suggest that the super handling capabilities are not what people are putting their money down on.
IIRC, this whole line has been going on for a very, very long time- where the GM cars out handle the Mustang, but the Mustang wins in the sales ring. Like for decades now.
I noticed that since the beginning of the Camaro/Firebird and it never made sense to me. I thought in most cases the Camaro was the better car, but the Mustang beat it in sales.
Cool name.
No matter how you say it, “Mustang” sounds cool.
Not much you can do with a Camero. 
SVreX said:Cool name.
No matter how you say it, “Mustang” sounds cool.
Not much you can do with a Crammit.
FTFY
racerfink said:This explains some of the problems with Ford’s EPAS.
That was three minutes of a guy who doesn't know what's wrong trying to ask YouTube (!) to help him figure out why his steering feels sloppy. I didn't hear anything that sounded like an explanation of anything.
alfadriver said:And while this is going on, about 20k people a year more are choosing the Mustang.
I choose to take this as proof that the buying public would like to see out of their vehicles. I hope that this lesson can be applied broadly in future product development by all brands.
Ransom said:alfadriver said:And while this is going on, about 20k people a year more are choosing the Mustang.
I choose to take this as proof that the buying public would like to see out of their vehicles. I hope that this lesson can be applied broadly in future product development by all brands.
You do realize that the ultimate logical conclusion for this is, oh, for instance, Ford saying they will stop selling cars entirely?
(I mean, okay you can't see out of the back. I'm convinced people who drive trucks don't pay attention to the rearview mirror anyway)
In reply to Knurled. :
I are confused. My impression is that the Camaro is the world heavyweight champion for poor visibility, and that the Mustang beating it on sales despite nominally not handling as well is a sign that outward visibility matters.
But I'm tetchy about questioning you, because last time it turned out I was failing to brain and forgot how differentials worked.
I think I get it. You're referring to Ford's nearly already not selling cars? Everybody who bought a Mustang or a Camaro registered their preference for Not A Berking SUV, so I'm crossing my fingers. Moreover, the Tall Things don't necessarily have great visibility anymore, either. I almost test drove a C-Max and a Volt, but knew instantly on sitting down in them that I wasn't okay with the visibility. (I feel like I've repeated that anecdote a lot, but it keeps coming up...)
In reply to Ransom :
All I meant was, you have to be careful about taking the idea of "outward visibility over all" because that is the main reason people claim to buy SUVs. Or at least it used to be.
Also, if you want to turn anecdotes into data, Camaros have typically been female owned, in the sample that I've ever seen. Girls don't want cars now, they want SUVs. So of course Camaro sales suck compared to the Mustang. I've never had a female customer who owned a Mustang but Camaro ownership was maybe 70:30 female bias.
Ransom said:racerfink said:This explains some of the problems with Ford’s EPAS.
That was three minutes of a guy who doesn't know what's wrong trying to ask YouTube (!) to help him figure out why his steering feels sloppy. I didn't hear anything that sounded like an explanation of anything.
Well.when I get back on Wi-Fi, I’ll post the other 49 videos that came up, along with all the links to Mustang forums talking about the numerous EPAS problems. Would that be better?
Every day that passes makes me feel more alone in the strong desire to own the most basic, manual everything ie: roll up windows, manual steering, manual locks etc. car complete with rubber floor mats.
I guess I could be convinced to have fuel injection.
Not sure why but this thread reminded me I couldn’t care less about most cars built after the 1980’s.
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