Why not the dealer?

Driven5 wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Theoretically, the experience is being addressed...we are being told it is.

That's the funniest thing I've read all week! Thanks for the laugh!! Let me guess: It involves banners that read "Is this good for the company?" that dealerships will put up in the break room encouraging the mechanics, service writers, sales staff, and 1st level managers to consider with every decision they make? Maybe they've hired some outside consultants for all the dealerships, that for the sake of argument, we could collectively refer to as "The Bob's"? Yeah...This has success written all over it.

Knowing which Major Company that alfadriver works for, and listening to the radio every day, I'm assuming that the changes involve an advertising campaign that is vaguely insulting to the entire service industry in a "casually racist" way, from the bossy, self-important service writer, to the techs who are so job-specific that they have names like Slick, Treads, and Jigsaw. (Jigsaw is the parts guy. Really.)

First, a suggestion: read this article, including the section that say "read more", or buy the pdf so you can print it. It makes some good points about understanding customer needs: Customer input article

Second- my input: I hate paying someone to do something I can do myself so I used to do all my repairs except tires and alignments.

As I've gotten older and with kids time is more valuable to me than the cost of oils changes so I let the dealer do them.

I've had mixed experiences with dealers, but the current ones are decent. More detail below if you want to read on.

We did take the 2003 forester we used to have to the dealer when under warranty, but after the warranty I did all the work on it including oils changes, brakes, exhaust, oil pan and valve adjustment.

Since buying my Elantra and the wife's Sedona in 2011 and 2010, respectively, everything but brakes and filters have been done at the dealer.

The kia dealer has been good about not upselling, and even stating when a requested tire rotation isn't needed.

I hadn't checked the mileage since the last rotation but they did and supposedly measured tread depth.

I did have them replace an Evap canister, which was pricey, but saved me having to try to locate a crack by the mounting bolt. Still bugs me that it happen 5k miles out of the bumper to bumper warranty, but so far that's been the only non-maintenance repair.

The Hyundai dealer I originally bought from wasn't trustworthy and tried to tell me I needed a timing belt. In addition to pushy Upselling of fuel services and other snake oil.

The dealer I've been going to the last 4 years has been good. There have been some disagreements that took some persuasion to get them to correct, such as missing trim clips and misaligned hood after engine replacement. But since all oil changes had been done at a dealer there were no issues when the transmission and engine were replaced under warranty.

When they did the engine I had them do the spark plugs, thermostat, and belts. It just cost me for the parts, since it was done with the warranty engine.

The current Hyundai dealer provided loaners that were less than a year old any time it was in for more than a few hours. The kia dealer will provide loaners, but they tend to be older.

Both vehicles have tires that were bought from the dealer. They special orders the tires I wanted and the dealer matched tire racks price with shipping and was cheaper than the authorized installers.

Now that the Elantra is out of warranty (104k miles) I'll probably still have the dealer do the oil changes, but I'll do the repairs.

The Kia still has power train warranty left and will continue to go to the dealer for oil changes and any warranty repairs, or repairs that are inconvenient/require special tools. The exception may be spark plugs at 100k since the research I've done says the plenum need to come off the intake and I don't want to pay the dealer labor rate for that.

Knurled wrote:

Driven5 wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Theoretically, the experience is being addressed...we are being told it is.

That's the funniest thing I've read all week! Thanks for the laugh!! Let me guess: It involves banners that read "Is this good for the company?" that dealerships will put up in the break room encouraging the mechanics, service writers, sales staff, and 1st level managers to consider with every decision they make? Maybe they've hired some outside consultants for all the dealerships, that for the sake of argument, we could collectively refer to as "The Bob's"? Yeah...This has success written all over it.

Knowing which Major Company that alfadriver works for, and listening to the radio every day, I'm assuming that the changes involve an advertising campaign that is vaguely insulting to the entire service industry in a "casually racist" way, from the bossy, self-important service writer, to the techs who are so job-specific that they have *names* like Slick, Treads, and Jigsaw. (Jigsaw is the parts guy. Really.)

Is Slick the oil change guy?

In reply to Keith Tanner:

How'd you guess?

Can we get back to the reasons?

All sorts of companies hire pr people who are not nearly as clever as they think. And that's not all that important for me

alfadriver wrote: Can we get back to the reasons? All sorts of companies hire pr people who are not nearly as clever as they think. And that's not all that important for me

Wait a minute...are we doing your homework for you?

In reply to Woody:

Of course. Ford dealerships will dramatically improve thanks to our horror stories shared here. The rest of the automakers will see the shining beacon Ford has become and strive to follow suit.

Alfa when you are done with the presentation that will change how we buy cars... can you call KTM up and let them know they lost a sale today because they have chosen to fall in with dishonest, E36 M3berkeleying asshammers pretty much across the board as far as their big bike US market is concerned?

Ok, but the local indy's near me charge $120-150 an hour. The dealer charges $135 an hour and I get a 10% discount, so I'm paying close to $120 an hour.

If I'm paying the same labor and parts costs, why would I go to an indy shop? I have to find someone to follow me there to take me home, then take me back when the car is done.

The dealer makes my life easier and I'm not paying extra for it.

That being said, I don't take it there for oil changes and the like. I do those myself, I'm not paying them $250+ for an oil change...

I figure I can do a mediocre (at worst) job myself, all it costs is my time. If I'm paying someone to do it for me, especially at a higher hourly rate than I make, I expect it to be done right. I'm happy to pay decent money for someone to do the work when it's beyond my skill or tool set, but I'm going to hold their work to a much higher standard on my own.

the last dealer I had touch one of my cars was my Hyundai Tiburon.. which I bought new from said dealer. For those not familier with them, the Tiburons had a hard plastic part to the door panel that mated up with the dash to swoop down into the console, it was very stylish. It was also prone to cracking. My car had the rare bronze interior (they were either black or silver) and after the door panel cracked, it took the dealer three times to get it right.. twice they ordered the wrong colour, and on the third try, it was bronze, but not quite the right colour.

They also blamed the two electrical issues the car came down with on my aftermarket stereo to avoid warrantying the work. I could see the dimmer for the dash lights.. but the airbag?!?

Except for warranty work, I never took my car there

docwyte wrote: That being said, I don't take it there for oil changes and the like. I do those myself, I'm not paying them $250+ for an oil change...

Seriously? I get the oil changed on my Cummins at the dealer, and it's something like $40 when I buy 4 at a time. And that includes 12 qts of oil!

Ugh my Mini dealer is awful out of warranty. $350 oil changes. Prices pretty consistently $300 higher then the prices I find online for dealer service elsewhere. I don't trust them worth a damn.

I can get the same service done at the local independent shop twice for the same price... So I figure why not use the family owned shop local to me for the simple stuff, and another specialty shop for the BMW specialty stuff... where I like the people far more then the slimy dealer service advisors?

I had always heard horror stories about dealers so I never went to one. Then we bought the Fiat and my wife hit a pothole and bent a wheel two days before we were driving it to Florida. I brought it down for a wheel and had them change the oil and look over the front end. The prices were reasonable, they didn't find anything extra wrong but I was there for about four hours. Because I bought the car there the parts counter gives us a discount that makes them as cheap as anywhere I found online so I go back for any parts I've needed.

For any repair work I can't do myself I still go to an independent. He's a family friend that does good work and always does right by me and my family so if I have to pay someone I'd rather it be him.

Must be all the crap situations with dealers when I lived in suburban NY. 5 trips to dealers to fix a traction control light in my wife's Vette that wouldn't turn off (under warranty). Once the warranty was up, I finally got it fixed myself, turns out the factory manual has a typo in trouble codes, swapping left and right. Dealer threw huge dollars worth of parts into the wrong side and new ecu over a couple years.

4 trips to the dealer with a first hear Chrysler 3.6 engine due to the cylinder head trouble. First place was a nightmare, eventually telling me they were stalling me because it would take 3 months to get a new head. Moved cross country, took it to a dealer in the Dakotas, and has it back in 72 hours all fixed. First place didn't know they just needed to provide a VIN number and Jeep would overnight the whole part kit.

In addition to cost and questionable honesty, for me the dealer is rather inconvenient. I have to drop the car off, have someone meet me there to take me home, then reverse the process for pick-up - thus killing an evening of two people. I'm lucky enough to have spare cars so I don't need a rental. They could give me oil changes for free (which for a TDI, would be worth around $50) and I still wouldn't do it because it's too much of a PITA vs doing it myself.

A coworker in NJ has a pair of Lexus. One he bought new for his wife about 6 years ago and a CPO car he leased a few months ago. He has all service for both done at the dealer near work where he bought them. No matter what he is having done, they give him a loaner. This was good business as I'm near certain that driving around in some of the newer cars played a role in him trading in his '08 Mazda 6 for the CPO Lexus (an ES300 or something). On the plus side, the lease mileage forces him to drive his '96 Mustang a bit more often.

Lately, I've been taking the Hondas and the Tacoma to the dealer for oil changes. It seems that they're always running a special for $25 and at that price, it's worth not having to deal with the old oil. But they always try to upsell me on something. The Porsches I do myself because they hold a lot of oil and you can get Mobil 1 really cheap at Walmart. That adds up quickly.

Surprisingly, when I had the frame on my truck replaced under warranty (112k miels), I kept waiting for the phone call with a big list of "Hey, while we're in there...", but the only thing that they suggested was new front brakes, and it did need them. In fact, I already had the parts in my garage, I just hadn't gotten around to it yet.

Last two new trucks were serviced at the dealer only. The '14 is still on the GM two year free service that covers oil, filter and tire rotation. I don't miss doin' that maintenance at all. Hasn't needed anything else. I still do the add-ons. Prolly trade it in about the time free service expires.

E92 goes to the best indie shop in town, they know these cars well. Haven't really turned a wrench on it yet but gonna do the intake walnut shell media blast myself. All in I'll still be hundreds below the indie shop or BMW dealer.

S197 has been all my work, I save my wrench time for this one, that's what toys are for.

Huckleberry wrote: In reply to Woody: Of course. Ford dealerships will dramatically improve thanks to our horror stories shared here. The rest of the automakers will see the shining beacon Ford has become and strive to follow suit. Alfa when you are done with the presentation that will change how we buy cars... can you call KTM up and let them know they lost a sale today because they have chosen to fall in with dishonest, E36 M3berkeleying asshammers pretty much across the board as far as their big bike US market is concerned?

What I'm trying to point out that the idea that it's simple to get a bigger part of the maintenance pie is a whole lot harder than they think it is.

The real follow up question- if a miracle happened, and every thing that you had issues with were fixed on one day, but nobody knew it... what would it take to get you back? (certainly, if someone told you that it's better, you would barely believe it- which is very understandable)

My impression is that the amount better than on line sources, better than the local mechanic, better experience than going to your best home pub, etc- that the time it will take to make any decent gains will be on the order of decades and not year, and especially not months.

Not to say not improve, but better understand what you are up against. The reality that has turned into a decades old perception is going to take that long to fix.

Actually- going on my last post- this whole thing is just like Lincoln. Just a whole lot harder.

alfadriver wrote: Actually- going on my last post- this whole thing is just like Lincoln. Just a whole lot harder.

One thing Lincoln has going for it is the fact that cadillac threw away all their model name recognition and decided to go with a bunch of alphanumeric names that don't mean anything to anyone. This on top of all the other marketing missteps they keep making AND them canceling their flagship project.

JamesMcD wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Actually- going on my last post- this whole thing is just like Lincoln. Just a whole lot harder.

One thing Lincoln has going for it is the fact that cadillac threw away all their model name recognition and decided to go with a bunch of alphanumeric names that don't mean anything to anyone. This on top of all the other marketing missteps they keep making AND them canceling their flagship project.

That only matters if 1) you had a product that actually means something, and 2) didn't do the same alpha code names. Tell me what an MKC, MKS, MKT, MKX etc are. Once the Town Car left the line, Lincoln has been drifting around figuring out what to do. Even with cars that had decent potential. (the MKS should have been MORE of a SHO than the SHO was, but it was far less)

And to this note, the perception of what Lincoln was for most people was exactly what nobody wanted. Regardless if it is true or not, it does not matter- one has to fight the perception that you spent so much time putting together.

Everything people have posted here are true, 100%. The dealers have spent decades building this perception up, so tearing it down is going to take a LONG long time. When it comes to big budget items where the actual range of cost is so wide- memory lasts a long time. When it comes to respect and being treated like a small person, or constantly being sold stuff you don't need- that memory lasts longer.

The positive points need to get into the 50% or higher to make a real change. Now they are pretty darned low.

And relative to Lincoln, fixing the dealers is harder- mostly because you have to deal with a few hundred independent companies that represent you. It's easy to note that the stories are not limited to one brand.

Between the cost and the fact that many techs at dealers are fresh out of school, I'd rather use an independent. I look for techs that can honestly repair and don't just throw new parts at a car.

Addressing time concerns, I find that between time to and from a dealership, hassle in the dealership and general hassle of working around their schedule, most of the work on my cars I still do. Saves time and stress and I have more faith in my skills than in theirs.

Besides, they aren't called stealerships for nothing.

We have gone back and forth on dealer work. Most of our cars never saw a a dealership once they left the lot from the original sale. All based on trust issues, reputation and convenience. Originally we had a friend that worked at an indie shop so we knew we could trust that work recommended was truly needed. When we moved we tried a number of indie shops and ALL of them screwed us, so we tried a local dealer and they were no better. Eventually we found a good local indie. Now many years later, one of my kids works at a Nissan dealer and we take both our Nissan and Chevy there for work. Their prices are resonable and the techs do good work. I expect to be treated fairly and with respect at any business I do business with and unfortunately most places in todays day and age do not follow this philosophy. Add the age old reputation that dealers are the scum of the earth and they have an up hill battle. Treat your customers faifly and they will return and will likely tell their friends.