Will the VW ID. GTI really be an affordable performance EV?

Has anyone ever told you that the GTI offers electrifying performance? Well, VW apparently plans to take that literally after debuting an all-electric ID. GTI concept at the 2023 IAA in Munich.

Based on the ID.2all concept shown back in March, the ID. GTI Concept is “more than just a show car—it is the first glimpse of the exciting GTI …

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I've been waiting for the first affordable "hot hatch" style EV to come out. It looks like this might be it! I'm excited to learn more. The Hot Hatch formula is great because you can typically daily, haul people, autocross, and trackday competently in a bone-stock configuration. How close do we think they'll get to the current $30,500 MSRP? 

I really do and don't want to drive one 

This is the coolest "hot hatch" looking car I've seen in a while.  Just needs a K-swap and manual gearbox.  

msterbeau said:

This is the coolest "hot hatch" looking car I've seen in a while.  Just needs a K-swap and manual gearbox.  

So slower on purpose?

 "Simulated shift points"!?  Just.  No.  CVTs pretending to be an automatic n-speed transmission are bad enough; why are we simulating shift points in a vehicle with no transmission?  Same with fake engine noise. Make an electric hot hatch the best thing it can be without pretending to be something it's not. 

I'm very interested in an electric hot hatch, though probably anything with a VW badge on it would be a hard sell for me.

It needs to be AWD, at least as fast as the Focus RS and have an honest 250 mile range in the snow through the mountains.  This isn't some arbitrary theoretical requirement for me: driving to Denver through the mountains in the snow to see a concert and back home without having to worry about stopping to charge or having to choose between getting home and running the heat is a regular real-world mission.  Basically: it should do everything the Focus RS can for the same price and I'm there.

This is ID2 based, so it's a bit smaller than the current GTI. And it's not a Golf R. We don't need another $60k, 500 hp, overweight EV. This needs to be a price/performance replacement for the current GTI, not Golf R. $25-35k, 250 hp (and over 300 lb ft of torque, delivered instantly) with a 250-300 mile range. Basically like the $25k Bolt, but with VW styling (and hopefully what they promised about bringing buttons back for HVAC) and chassis dynamics and slightly bumped power and range.

Now if they WANT to base an upcoming Golf R EV on this, but with more power and AWD at a higher price point, fine. But we need to stop the EV HP arms race and build more sensible, affordable, fun EVs.

In reply to Chris_V :

Couldn't agree more.  500hp, $80k+ halo cars are fine, but please feed the hungry enthusiast masses, OEMs.  

Really wish this was made by Honda instead of VW, but cheap forgives a lot of sins, provided they can keep pricing competitive

In reply to calteg :

I'm assuming (and please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you) that you're indicating you view the Honda as the higher quality vehicle?

If you've spent time in a VW product from the last 10 years, you'll know they have come miles and miles in both tactile feel and quality.

My e-Golf is hands down one of the best cars I've owned at any price point.  I've owned North of a hundred cars to date, so I feel like this is saying something.

If the ID.GTI is built and hits the market in the U.S. (and if it comes with 4 doors), count me in VW U.S.A.

That's a really good looking car!

But will VW have a base model GTi?

Noddaz said:

But will VW have a base model GTi?

Isn't there only a GTI and Golf R now? The Golf was dropped years ago.

This is actually a small car (by today's standard)...about 6 inches shorter than my MK 7.5 GTi, and only about an inch taller and wider.  That's a promising place to start.

In reply to Loweguy5 :

I certainly feel that way, and i love both brands.  But i feel like the honda (say civic si for comparison) will run 200k+ miles on nothing but fluid changes.  Whereas the VW will have....something.  It seems to vary, but theres a window regulator/high pressure fuel pump/worn cam lobes/timing chain tensioner/etc/etc that always seems to crop up and put an asterisk on their "best cheap hot hatch".  
 

I actually like the mk7 gti's cloth plaid interior better than any other car below say $40k.  I just know the honda isn't going to break my heart (or wallet).  
 

I would expect all that to carry forward to Honda and VW's respective EV's, but I could be wrong.  An EV GTI with Honda/Toyota levels of reliability would be amazing.  

Loweguy5 said:

In reply to calteg :

I'm assuming (and please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you) that you're indicating you view the Honda as the higher quality vehicle?

If you've spent time in a VW product from the last 10 years, you'll know they have come miles and miles in both tactile feel and quality.

My e-Golf is hands down one of the best cars I've owned at any price point.  I've owned North of a hundred cars to date, so I feel like this is saying something.

If the ID.GTI is built and hits the market in the U.S. (and if it comes with 4 doors), count me in VW U.S.A.

The concept is a 4-door.  Here's a fairly comprehensive video...about 16 minutes in, the head of design comes in and it gets more interesting. 
https://youtube.com/watch?v=M1KECiAyN4I&si=pw0T3E5OQYhh-rbB

Chris_V said:

msterbeau said:

This is the coolest "hot hatch" looking car I've seen in a while.  Just needs a K-swap and manual gearbox.  

So slower on purpose?

Not necessarily.  Have you seen what can be extracted from Honda's version of the SBC?

In any case, I'm less worried about performance and more worried about driver involvement/enjoyment.  I'm not yet ready to do without a manual gearbox. 

msterbeau said:

Chris_V said:

msterbeau said:

This is the coolest "hot hatch" looking car I've seen in a while.  Just needs a K-swap and manual gearbox.  

So slower on purpose?

Not necessarily.  Have you seen what can be extracted from Honda's version of the SBC?

In any case, I'm less worried about performance and more worried about driver involvement/enjoyment.  I'm not yet ready to do without a manual gearbox. 

In our other thread on manuals, I talk about this "driver involvement" crap. If that's all it takes to be a driver or get enjoyment out of a car, put a shifter and clutch pedal on your easy chair at home and get all the driver involvement/enjoyment you want. Oh, there's more to it than that? My point exactly. In fact, I'd posit that steering, braking, and accelerating are MORE important to the control/enjoyment of a car than a manual transmission. Go out to your car (and all let you start it up). Don't touch any control except the clutch and gear lever (not the steering wheel, not the brake pedal, not the accelerator pedal) and see how far down the road you get.

Manual transmissions were a mechanically necessary part of making a car move. ICE engines need to have multiple gear ratios in order to accelerate and cruise, by staying in the powerband. But they WILL stall at a stop in gear and not be able to accelerate FROM a stop unless you allow a way to decouple the engine from the transmission, and allow slippage to get moving. So you need a clutch (or torque converter in an automatic). Electric motors need none of that. They don't "idle." They don't "stall." You can come to a stop in gear and accelerate from a stop without slipping anything. Adding a manual transmission to an EV is the height of stupid engineering just to keep some clueless "enthusiasts" placated. And FAKING a manual trans is even worse (looking at you, Toyota).

But manual transmissions were not the only thing necessary to make early ICE vehicles move. You needed manual cranking to get the engine started, manual spark advance/retard to start, then run it, manual chokes to make the carb work right, etc. Why aren't you demanding all that in a car these days? Why get stuck on that shifter as the ONE thing that defines driving and enjoyment to you? I'm getting so tired of closed minded "enthusiasts" who won't give a car a chance, especially something like this, because of some primitive hang-up.

These are massive fun and don't have shifters at all...

oooh and they are EVs, too...

I like it.  I like the ID2 actually, just please stop making them so tall.

In reply to Loweguy5 :

I'm talking about longevity. 

VW has a long history of building to a price point and cheaping out on items that would keep the car on the road longer.

I've always loved the GTI (and owned one, briefly), my hope is that much fewer moving parts in an EV version equates to a much more reliable vehicle

calteg said:

In reply to Loweguy5 :

I'm talking about longevity. 

VW has a long history of building to a price point and cheaping out on items that would keep the car on the road longer.

I've always loved the GTI (and owned one, briefly), my hope is that much fewer moving parts in an EV version equates to a much more reliable vehicle

I think that the last line is important.

Looking at it from 1,000 feet: If a GM V8 timing system has ten part numbers and an Audi V8 has five hundred, the time spent on R&D and iterations of design has to be spread between each of those parts. If an ICE vehicle doesn't have literally hundreds of systems required to keep an ICE alive, and only replaces with a speed controller and a battery and a very minor cooling system for the battery and motor, then they should be more reliable and the vehicles, once economies of scale are taken into consideration, be far cheaper.  Imagine the cost, for instance, of engine oil, if only 5% of the vehicles in the world used engine oil.

We're in the infancy of widespread adoption, and it's already evident. I have 86K miles on the Bolt which agree.

I like this a lot. I'm glad it's based on the ID.2, which seems to be the replacement for the Polo, which means it should actually be small! If we don't get the ID.2, this would be a fine consolation. 

RichardSIA said:

Several auto dealers have banded together to launch a lawsuit against their manufacturer as they are finding it impossible to sell the EV's they are currently forced to take into inventory.
Even after a $10,000 price drop!

Where can I find these dealers selling EVs at a $10k discount?

RichardSIA said:

<snip>It is my duty to point out that the emperor has no cloths, just so no one can claim there were never any objections to EV's being crammed down our throats!

Phew!  Glad you spoke up because no one has yet offered an objection to EV's anywhere on the interwebz!  Amirite?