I'm running there in a week.
It's in desperate need of upgrading.
In it's current form, it's my last pick of tracks to go to.
We'll see what the PE does with it.
Tom1200 said:I'm running there in a week.
It's in desperate need of upgrading.
In it's current form, it's my last pick of tracks to go to.
We'll see what the PE does with it.
Yeah, a lot of people lamenting the sale haven't actually run it (well, to be fair, neither have I, but I know a lot of people who have). There's a reason it was for sale at a fairly low price, clearly the previous owners had been having trouble making the standard track business model work and that's been going on for a very long time.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:Yeah, a lot of people lamenting the sale haven't actually run it (well, to be fair, neither have I, but I know a lot of people who have). There's a reason it was for sale at a fairly low price, clearly the previous owners had been having trouble making the standard track business model work and that's been going on for a very long time.
Having been there for the first time just two months ago, I agree with this.
It's been existing of late straddling the fine line of minimizing operating costs, while offering/enticing various grassroots entities with super-cheap lap access. $200 for open pit lane Friday T&T is hard to beat anywhere.
In addition to the usual track day groups, this makes it ideal for various LA-based journalistic endeavors, as well as manufacturer based marketing use.
But, it's a really run down place. Not quite as bad as Nelson Ledges was (and partially still is). But not what higher clients are going to want to visit.
So the real question is what demographic the new owners go after. How far up the food chain do they aim for?
This assumes it will stay a race track, but the wind appears to be blowing in that direction.
I haven't been there for about 5 years, but it felt the same in 2019 as it did in 2002. And Carroll Smith mentions it in one of his books as being a cheap and easy track to use for testing. So I think that's been the character of the place for a very long time: pavement and nothing else. I kinda like that, I have little use for all the fancy suites and amenities and VIP overhead but access is important.
Come to think of it, most of my track time has been spent at tracks like that. HPR has toilets in a trailer. Thunderhill didn't have much when I was there. Spring Mountain used to have a Quonset hit and nothing else. My local track has nothing...but I have the gate code :)
Keith Tanner said:Come to think of it, most of my track time has been spent at tracks like that. HPR has toilets in a trailer. Thunderhill didn't have much when I was there. Spring Mountain used to have a Quonset hit and nothing else. My local track has nothing...but I have the gate code :)
My requirement list for a track isn't high. I also have no use for luxury VIP suites -- Sonoma has them, but they're always locked when I'm there anyway. I'm looking for:
- pavement that is in decent shape
- a paddock where I don't have to park my trailer in the dirt
- clean bathrooms with running water
- a decent hotel within about a 20 minute drive
Willow Springs had a lot of issues with #1 on this list and is the main reason I've never gone there. Supposedly they repaved it last year (CalClub had stopped going there for that reason), but I have heard that even so it's still not great.
Buttonwillow is pretty marginal on that list, the paddock is half dirt, the bathrooms are iffy, and it's 30 minutes to a hotel I can actually get a decent night's sleep at.
The problem is most of the entities renting the track for testing (like all the car magazines once centered around SoCal) have dried up and blown away. So the test rental model doesn't work like it did.
Jerry From LA said:The problem is most of the entities renting the track for testing (like all the car magazines once centered around SoCal) have dried up and blown away. So the test rental model doesn't work like it did.
Ironically, the opposite is true up here in NorCal at Thunderhill. It's actually really hard to get weekday race test days there because the main track surface is heavily rented by OEMs doing testing. Tesla is apparently there a lot.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
I last raced there in 1995, then about 4-5 years ago we went to spectators for the day and i was shocked that the track hadn't changed at all.
It was scruffy in 1995.
I'm hoping if it does stay a track they at least upgrade the track. Even after the repaving it still needs love.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:- pavement that is in decent shape
Willow Springs had a lot of issues with #1 on this list and is the main reason I've never gone there. Supposedly they repaved it last year (CalClub had stopped going there for that reason), but I have heard that even so it's still not great.
New pavement is quite good, IMO.
My biggest beef with the racing surface is that the white lines on the outside edge have burned off from the sun already. So in certain key places (i.e. T9 entry) you aren't really sure where the track edge is. The rubble on the outside of the track is the same color as the pavement. And there's a bit of a drop-off. So...don't mess up.
In reply to Andy Hollis :
The lack of kerbing at the apex of turns 2 & 9 are one of the issues I have with it as well.
When I race motorcyles there in the 80s there was a huge chuck hole on the exit of turn 9. You'd likely never see that in a car since you are sitting lower.
Tom1200 said:...When I race motorcyles there in the 80s there was a huge chuck hole on the exit of turn 9. You'd likely never see that in a car since you are sitting lower.
Hah, I remember that, back when I ran my 1200 there in the late 80's. When I set up Turn 9 just right, the right side tires would glide right over that missing section of track surface. Even got a thumbs up by the corner worker. In a car, it's a challenge to get right but on a bike, yeah, that could be very bad news.
My biggest fear running there is that in many places, the sand and rock surface adjacent to the pavement is 2-6" lower, so dropping a wheel off could be trouble. That, and if you went off completely and got at all sideways, embedded rocks could hook a wheel. When I scared myself silly losing Midlana in Turn 8-9, I was thankful that it spun mostly on-track and toward the infield where the soft dirt berm was higher. The only damage was scuffing to the left side of the car, a debeaded tire, and a damaged but relieved ego.
The relief came from avoiding something like this, experienced by someone on the same part of the track:
In reply to kb58 :
I've seen a rider killed in that spot.
While I'm OK running the Datsun at the track I would not ever have run my Formula 500 there.
I also wouldnt instruct at a track day at big Willow. The thought of new drivers in 150mph-160mph cars going thorough turn eight is crazy to me.
In reply to kb58 :
Oh. my. god. I don't think I ever want to drive willow springs after seeing that. I like being alive too much.
I have watched dozens of videos with Randy and Jason Cammisa there and never really realized just how fast of a track it is.
In addition to the rain culvert the Mustang hit above, out beyond T2 is a steep bank upward. There's an video of a Porsche going off there, and much like the Mustang, was carrying so much speed there was no stopping. It ran straight into that bank and stopped suddenly. I won't link to it because the driver was in obvious distress. I have to admit never even noticing the "distant" bank while driving the 1200, as it simply couldn't go fast enough to feel threatening in that area. Driving Midlana was a different story. There's a line in a car book I read that I never forgot. Paraphrasing: "It's one thing to drive a slow car fast, but what do you do when you get in something that will always go much faster, at any speed." To be honest, I wanted to at least once drive a very fast car, built one, and that track scared me to the point that I doubt that I was much faster than with the 1200.
It seems so wide open, but due to the high speeds, there just isn't a lot of runoff room to stop a wayward car. I realize that's pretty much the same on all tracks, but at Willow Springs, it can have worse consequences.
In reply to kb58 :
In the late 80s the bank outside of 8-9 was even closer but they moved it back after an incident.
Beyond any safety concerns the run from 6 down to 9 is boring in all but the fastest cars.
I would love it if the put an inner loop in that section of the track but I don't see that as very likely.
According to this article in Roadracing World all WSIR tenants have been told to vacate the property by the end of the month... that doesn't bode well for the track remaining in anything like it's current status.
In reply to Rodan :
Yeah that's all over Facebook and the like.
We shall see what happens.
The only plus is that Willow Springs is nearly 90 minutes from places like Burbank so I don't see it as the next housing boom location.
Rodan said:According to this article in Roadracing World all WSIR tenants have been told to vacate the property by the end of the month... that doesn't bode well for the track remaining in anything like it's current status.
Most of those are people that work for the track -- maintenance, etc. -- plus a couple of small shops.
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