'You should have bought a better car'

wearymicrobe wrote: Bottom line is most people who modify cars do not take a holistic view of the build and end up seriously compromised.

This 100%.

As part of my day job, I modify and put back together modified Buicks. I think the best ones are the simpler ones: stock suspension, stock-appearing turbo, stock intercooler, stock PCM with a chip upgrade, maybe an adjustable fuel pressure regulator to dial it in. This is good for 400-550hp with drivability and livability like a stock car.

The cars that are not so enjoyable are the ones that get more and more compromised towards the goal of quarter mile times. Rough ride, less-good drivability, spinning higher RPM down the road from lack of overdrive, leaking oil because high horsepower makes the block twist and warp (or the alternative: unpleasant vibration from block/mid plate engine mounting), etc.

One could argue that the former cars are seriously compromised from performance in order to gain street manners. One could also counter that if 99% of your driving is street use, compromises really should be made in that direction.

NOHOME wrote: Wonder where you would put the FM ND V8 conversion since it is an 80k Miata?

As noted earlier, there is no OE equivalent of that car. It's also (apparently) not a typical modified car. I had another journalist in it this weekend, and he said the only other car he's driven with a suspension like ours was a Singer. Which is interesting, because the guy with my job at Singer is a rally driver...

The guys buying them aren't buying Miatas, they're buying something else. There aren't any other options for a light, powerful V8 roadster without compromises. So the "buy something better" argument is difficult to make on this specific case. But it's valid - there will be a lot of people choose a Z06 over our car for various reasons. We can't produce as many as GM can, so that's good

I'll modify my daily drivers. I don't think I own a car with stock suspension, but I spend a lot of time (and some money) making sure that they ride as well as stock or better. Heck, I've lifted a Honda!

Keith Tanner wrote:

NOHOME wrote: Wonder where you would put the FM ND V8 conversion since it is an 80k Miata?

As noted earlier, there is no OE equivalent of that car. It's also (apparently) not a typical modified car. I had another journalist in it this weekend, and he said the only other car he's driven with a suspension like ours was a Singer. Which is interesting, because the guy with my job at Singer is a rally driver...

Huh. There was a YouTube video from one of the car video blogs that was completely dissing the V8 ND, saying it had no handling.

I'm not suggesting that they were right, I just chalked it up to "haters gonna hate". You can't impress clueless idiots with a Miata the same way you can with a Ferrari or Lamborghini, after all.

I'd love to know what car blog that was, because I can guarantee they didn't drive the car or even see it in person. The only YouTube videos out there that are from people who have actually driven it are Smoking Tire and Drivetribe, and they know it handles. I'm sure there's someone out there trying to start controversy because it drives clicks and makes them a few bucks, but they're not doing it from experience.

So, yeah, there will be the small penis contingent and the typical YouTube mouth-breather commenters who are more impressed by a noisy Italian. But that's okay, because you can't buy a Ferrari or Lamborghini for double what you'd have to pay for ours.

Drivetribe. That's the one. They said it was all horsepower and no handling.

Huh.

"It still retains a lot of what you'd expect an MX-5 to be like, but with that amazing powerplant".

"The engine feels too big and strong for this circuit"

"There's a lovely, fluid balance to it. Quite heavy steering, but it's a lot of fun. What a fun little car."

"Like sharing a bedsit with a bear, in such a small car the grizzly engine always makes its presence known, and with such a short wheelbase slides can start and stop very quickly. But the Fox Racing suspension...is impressive on both road and track."

"I think the wonderful little Habu could succeed where Mustangs and Camaros and Corvettes have always slightly failed, it could actually fit in rather well in little old England"

Yeah, Henry totally dissed it The heavy steering was because the GM PS pump had sprung a leak, we found that out when he brought it in. Fair cop. And they were driving it on a short little drift track as he said, so the engine WAS too big and strong to really exercise. But if "a lovely fluid balance" means "no handling", I need to brush up on my English.

Knurled wrote:

Chris_V wrote: How do you get a CEL from a sway bar or mild lowering springs, huh? Or wider wheels? Or a cat back exhaust? You don't and they don't affect driveability negatively if you choose even slightly wisely.

I have never driven a lowered car that had remotely acceptable drivability. Cars should not canter and crashing into the bumpstops when you hit a frost heave or pothole is unacceptable.

I've never driven one that DIDN'T have acceptable drivability. And I've daily driven MANY. I take that back, one BMW 2002ti that came to my shop had coil springs that were melted with a torch to achieve the lowness the owner wanted, and 2 of the springs snapped on the way to my shop from his house. So yeah, I've driven one that rode like crap before I fixed it.

Maybe you just don't know what the F you are doing. None of my lowered cars have EVER hit the bumpstops, not even that 4" lower Falcon. My BMW with the H&R Stage II lowering springs was a daily driver even on these crappy Baltimore roads and still rode as smooth as stock at a 2" drop...

It keeps coming back to the fact that I really don't think many of you are as skilled at car building as you like to think, or just make infinitely stupid choices when building cars, so you think that's the only kind of choice there is.

Tom1200 wrote: Finally I'm not saying anything other than 100% stock is bad or will be unreliable

Ummm... You said:

"If the car is supposed to be a reliable daily driver, then that tipping point is zero. No mods, 100% stock."

And that's factually incorrect. Sorry. But it is. And that's where I take umbrage to your statement. There are a lot of modifications that can be made that will improve looks, handling, sound, etc. without negatively affecting drivability or reliability. From cat back exhausts to mild sport springs and better shocks, to swaybars, to CAIs and a host of cosmetic mods, like I did to that Mustang pictured and my current DD BMW.

There are many, many poorly lowered cars out there. I'm not stating absolutes saying that they all ride beautifully or all ride like crap, but if you say you've never driven a lowered car with poor driveability you either haven't driven all that many or you've got pretty low standards

Some platforms may be more tolerant than others, but I didn't even find the worn stock suspension on my M5 to be acceptable.

Lowering a car definitely impacts the ride in an adverse fashion. Whether its enough to bother you or not is completely subjective.

docwyte wrote: Lowering a car definitely impacts the ride in an adverse fashion. Whether its enough to bother you or not is completely subjective.

If you don't change anything else, yes. But it's possible to lower a car and improve the ride if you pay attention to rates, damping and bumpstops.

Keith, unfortunately that's a crap shoot. Bilstein/Koni doesn't know the rate of the H&R springs you're using. So you can end up with a mismatched set of dampeners/springs.

Also lowering the car on a mcpherson strut setup makes the car lose bump travel and some cars don't have a ton of that to begin with...

Chris_V wrote:

Tom1200 wrote: Finally I'm not saying anything other than 100% stock is bad or will be unreliable

Ummm... You said: "If the car is supposed to be a reliable daily driver, then that tipping point is zero. No mods, 100% stock." And that's factually incorrect. Sorry. But it is. And that's where I take umbrage to your statement. There are a lot of modifications that can be made that will improve looks, handling, sound, etc. without negatively affecting drivability or reliability. From cat back exhausts to mild sport springs and better shocks, to swaybars, to CAIs and a host of cosmetic mods, like I did to that Mustang pictured and my current DD BMW.

Actually I said that, and I said it as the first of my personal "rules of thumb" for how I approach modifying cars. I don't care what you do -- those are my rules for myself. :)

One of the reasons I have this rule is that modifications are a slippery slope. I've been down that slope before, I know where it goes, and I'm a firm believer in not placing even one foot on it for the car that I depend on to get to work.

And no, I'm not totally opposed to modifying cars, I have a Miata with a stupid amount of money spent on it. I just don't do it to my DD.

docwyte wrote: Keith, unfortunately that's a crap shoot. Bilstein/Koni doesn't know the rate of the H&R springs you're using. So you can end up with a mismatched set of dampeners/springs. Also lowering the car on a mcpherson strut setup makes the car lose bump travel and some cars don't have a ton of that to begin with...

Of course you can't just pick random parts out of a catalog. It's up to you to ensure that your shocks can properly damp your springs, and that your springs have enough rate to keep you off the stops most of the time. I don't expect Koni/Bilstein to know how to nail a specific application. I do hope they give me the parts they need to get the job done well. Sometimes they do, the Konis on my M5 work well. Sometimes they don't, which is why we sell custom-valved Konis for the NC Miata at FM. The off-the-shelf units didn't do the job. Bilstein, more often than not, manage to give your car a jiggly ride that is characteristically Bilstein.

And yes, you lose bump travel. Which is why a stiffer spring can actually ride better than a softer one, keeping your suspension moving instead of slamming into bumpstops. It's counterintuitive for a lot of people, but it works. Unfortunately, most of the big spring manufacturers simply drop the car by 1", raise the spring rate by 30% and then move on to the next car. Which leads to a glut of poorly matched springs on the market, usually paired with inexpensive shocks or sold as "compatible with stock shocks" because the spring rate is so close to stock.

Completely agree with you Keith. Unfortunately many of the people buying springs/shocks don't buy from a shop that has the knowledge of what works well together on what platform...

Knurled wrote: There was a YouTube video from one of the car video blogs that was completely dissing the V8 ND, saying it had no handling... Drivetribe. That's the one. They said it was all horsepower and no handling.

Henry from DriveTribe seems to love the car: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CdOlX1iq_0

Matt Farah's enthusiastic One Take: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLONL8ax9CI

Car and Driver: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/flyin-miata-habu-mx-5-v-8-test-review

I love the concept of the Habu, I appreciate all the work to get the details just right and I like that it's a combination of OEM engineered bits from two of the most successful drivers cars around, but you have to really really love Miatas to spend that much money on one.

I may have mentioned that the guys buying them aren't buying a Miata. They're buying something else. Miata guys can't get their heads around that

oldeskewltoy wrote:

'xperience....

we are all individuals.... and failure is a wonderful teacher. I have been a part of more failures, then successes... and a few "successes", may have taught me as well

just figuring out what fits.... isn't always the answer, because what fits NOW.... may not fit later when you have completed your project.

The reason I posted the Grinch smile was it is a knowing (albeit evil) smile.... and until you know what it is YOU really want, it might be tough to find the fit you desire.

@Chris_V I would take umbrigde with your taking umbrigde to a statement I didn't make but Codrus took care of that.

OK so being serious it's absolutely correct that some people don't know what they're doing. Over the years I've encountered numerous people who bought quality dampers then proceeded to screw them up by cranking up the rebound. I usually drive their car 3 corners and ask them if they've been playing with the dampers. My thought has always been if it's this bad on the track how awful is it on the road. Same goes for wacky alignment settings, anti-roll bars and spring rates. The set ups seem to be brought on by a lack of knowledge; overly stiff set up has snappy response that "feels fast" but the driver doesn't realize the lack of compliance equals lack of traction (as an aside from a track stand point these set ups are also used to overcome poor technique). A perfect example for me is my Datsun uses Keihin FCR flat slide carbs; you read all over the net that they don't work at low RPM with large throttle openings and you need to ride or drive around the carbs at low RPMs. Obviously nothing could be further from the truth. By happenstance my Beta dual sport bike uses the same carb and the motorcycle magazines raved about how well it works.

The comments about the wholistic approach are spot on; we are going through this exercise with my 23 yr old son's Miata, he's doing the typical new to modifying cars young guy things. We've discussed stuff and in the case where he's adamant about trying something I'll go along (provided it's easily undone). He's learning there is a difference between lowered and slammed. We've had the discussion on why his buddies 240SX doesn't need 90psi boost etc. We're slowly working his way to a decent balance and we have the same discussion as this thread I tell him I'm at a point that in life that for the street a stock Miata is the one for me but if he wants to play with the car it's fine. Of course I do have an extra street car so if his breaks down he would still be able to get to class.

@Kieth Tanner you are correct about to soft a spring; not really apples to apples but my Showroom Stock Miata (NA) it was so soft that the rear suspension would ride on the bump stops in long high G corners, this made for rather interesting handling and driving when a bump was thrown in the mix. I could never figure out why Showroom Stock guys seemed to be so wild to I started racing the class.

Keith Tanner wrote: I may have mentioned that the guys buying them aren't buying a Miata. They're buying something else. Miata guys can't get their heads around that

I keep saying....