Any Electrical Engineers here?

What are the chances of getting my foot in the door without a degree?

I've been building and repairing electronics for about 15 years now. Although I'm still green behind the ears, I'm already taking products into production. I have plans to teach myself a few programming languages, seeing that legacy products are still updated and put back into production using old programming languages.

My library of college textbooks is growing (thank you Amazon!), and I've been watching MIT lectures when I have spare time.

My goal is to work for a small, specialized company of some sort, hopefully doing audio something or another, but anywhere in the electronics or mechatronics field would be wonderful.

Good idea, or should I pony up for a piece of paper and some numbers?

I'm an EE. When I first got out of school 35 years ago I worked with a few guys who were non-degreed engineers, but those guys started in the business back in the late 50s or early 60s when that sort of thing wasn't so uncommon (plus I think they typically had military training in their background.) I haven't seen anyone do it since; it may not be impossible but I think it will be difficult to do it today. As you mentioned, a small specialist company is probably going to be your best chance; the challenge will be finding that company.

It's not as easy as it used to be. I have a friend who sort of does what you're talking about - he's a computer hardware engineer and is incredibly gifted at understanding how computers work down to the binary level. He got a technical school certificate ages ago and worked his way into the business. Now he works for a hardware company as a consultant: their customers have a problem, he fixes it. Works from home and pretty much makes his own schedule, although he does have to travel quite a bit.

In a sense, your experience is your resume and you'll get jobs through the contacts you make. I'm assuming there are industry associations for this sort of thing. Join them. Go to conventions. Join forums. Build stuff. Show people what you've built.

If time/money is an issue, you may be able to get a Technology Associates degree from a local community college.

In reply to stuart in mn:

I did it about 18 years ago. I went to CAD school and got a job at a MEP firm (specialized in retail and supermarkets) doing electrical CAD for an engineer (who actually wasn't a degreed engineer like you mention - he's about my parents' age). I showed some interest and ability so they slowly let me do my own projects. In less than 5 years I was working as a project/client manager and handling all aspects of the electrical design. I then moved to my current position as an electrical designer at an AE firm that specializes in the pharma industry. Somewhat more complicated, but the NEC is the NEC and electrical design is a electrical design.

However, it's now much harder to get into the field the way I did. Engineers now are expected to know CAD and do most of their own CAD drafting, so there is less of a need for the classic red-line CAD drafter.

Up here in canuckland, the point of being a engineer (with your professional designation, also known as a P.Eng) is so you can sign off on designs and assume liability/responsibility for those designs.

I don't know how it works in the US, but unless the company has someone working above you that is willing to scrutinize and sign off on your work, good luck. Especially electronics/electrical, CSA (in Canada) takes that E36 M3 seriously.

In reply to HiTempguy:

We do here as well, but the rules on who can sign drawings can vary by state. In NJ, only an actual PE and legally call himself an 'engineer' on his business card. Otherwise you're a 'designer' whether you have an engineering degree or not. Whether or not he/she can sign drawings depends on their position in the company they work for. Just because you are a PE doesn't mean you can take legal responsibility for the design. In my company, only partners can. And we have a lengthy QA/QC process to make sure the design meets Code and won't kill anyone.

Also, the OP is talking about electronics engineering. The rules are a bit different there.

In the US, generally a Professional Engineer license isn't required for EEs if you're in private industry doing electronics, it only comes into play if you're in consulting or construction and are designing structures or facilities. I started out in the electronic field (hard drives, telephone electronics) and didn't get into consulting until I was 40 (taking the PE test that late in life wasn't easy. )

As mentioned the licensing requirements vary by state, or by province for that matter if you're in Canada, and a person has to get licensed in each state or province where they are doing work. Some states do allow non-degreed engineers to become registered as PEs, depending on their level of experience, but that's not universal.

Virtually impossible unless you know a guy at a smaller company or something. You can't even get an internship these days without a few semesters of school (and a good GPA) first.

I agree with Kenny. You will want a degree. I am 43, and graduated in May with my EE. Multiple job offers, good pay, awesome benefits, and I will always be able to get a job. The job I am doing I had an internship in, and it is totally awesome; I hope my kids can enjoy their job someday as much as I enjoy this one. Getting the degree however is pretty sucky. Lots of people started, few left at the end.

The world is a changing place...

Everything listed here (regarding the difficulties, limitations, etc.) is true... now.

But stuff is changing so fast that I don't agree it is necessarily the standard anymore.

Licensing, certifications, and letters after your name enable you to fit into a world which is over-regulated, and extremely fat and sluggish.

Business is shifting. That world (which grew out of the business mindset of the '50's) is dying.

When I was at the chemical company, my title was "Engineer", despite the fact that I have no formal engineering training whatsoever. I engineered stuff, and that is what they wanted. The responsibility issues were always on the company anyway, so they figured they would save a few dollars on payroll. It is an idea that is "not quite ready for prime time", but growing fast.

"Real" engineers are getting older, and the market is changing faster than they are.

The license I do hold (General Contractor) is virtually worthless. Although it represents a professional certification, the reality of the marketplace is that there are so many loopholes, politics, and exceptions that it is MUCH easier to do a job without a license. It is not hard to hire someone who is licensed to take responsibility. That is not the way it should be, but it is the truth.

Ultimately, the consumers loose in both cases.

Cutting edge technology companies (Google, Tesla, Apple, FaceBook, etc.) don't give a darn about the piece of paper. They want creative genius.

My advice to a 50 year old- hang on to whatever certification you've got, and play it for all it's worth, because the next generation will not be so fortunate, except for military, scientific, and government applications.

My advice to a 20 year old- get smart. Your ability to produce product with creative solutions and continue to adapt for your entire life is your greatest asset.

My advice to a 35 year old- it's a toss up. You probably don't have the life experience to leverage the piece of paper like your older counterparts (and it won't last through your career), and you probably aren't versatile enough like your younger counterparts. Punt.

My advice to you, Look for a small company. You have the brains, but you will probably rot in the drudgery of getting a piece of paper and dragging yourself to work every day. I don't think that is the life for you. But you are old enough that you need to step up quickly to be a leader of the younger folks.

OR... look for an investor, and launch a product/ business.

In reply to svrex: the world is and always has been a changing place. That won't change. :) One of the guys I was in school with knows about everything there is to know in terms of computer science subject matter. He had already written a book in the area, and ended up teaching a couple classes during his last year. Got offers from Google and Apple predicated on having his degree. The degree matters.

I wouldn't want to work for Apple, nor Google. My goal is to NOT become an employee number, hence the reason for preferring smaller niche firms over big corporate overlords.

In reply to Derick Freese: I get that, you may figure a way to get both. Many employers will pay for school, and be great about working around your schedule. Getting an engineering degree doesn't tell employers you know anything; they know you don't. It tells them you have basic knowledge, practice problem solving, and will keep showing up until the job is done.

Jcamper wrote: Getting the degree however is pretty sucky. Lots of people started, few left at the end.

I think pretty sucky is putting it a bit lightly.

I have a BS in Chemistry with a masters in Engineering Management. I am presently working as an EE for a small company, so it is possible. Not having, and not being able to even sit for a PE is a drawback. I would've gotten an EE degree, but when I went to college I only had 36 months to graduate and there was no way to do it at the school I was attending. I used to help the EE students I knew with their circuits home work though. At this point, I don't think I will go back to school to get an actual engineering degree - just don't see it happening, although I'd love to be able to get my PE license. I wish they would let folks take the test without the degree - I have the knowledge, just not the piece of paper.

T.J. wrote: I have a BS in Chemistry with a masters in Engineering Management. I am presently working as an EE for a small company, so it is possible. Not having, and not being able to even sit for a PE is a drawback. I would've gotten an EE degree, but when I went to college I only had 36 months to graduate and there was no way to do it at the school I was attending. I used to help the EE students I knew with their circuits home work though. At this point, I don't think I will go back to school to get an actual engineering degree - just don't see it happening, although I'd love to be able to get my PE license. I wish they would let folks take the test without the degree - I have the knowledge, just not the piece of paper.

According to your profile you're in North Carolina. I checked their engineering board website and it appears to be possible to get a PE license without an engineering degree, if you have equivalent education and/or experience: http://reports.oah.state.nc.us/ncac/title%2021%20-%20occupational%20licensing%20boards%20and%20commissions/chapter%2056%20-%20engineers%20and%20surveyors/21%20ncac%2056%20.0501.pdf

In reply to stuart in mn:

Yes, it used to be that way in PA as well, but I understand they changed it. Kinda kicking myself for missing that. That said, the EIT and PE tests are nothing to sneeze at if you've been out of school for awhile.

It's funny... you may get some negative backlash from people with degrees. My ex-g/f was like that. She always seemed to have this resentment towards me because we essentially do the same job, but she went through 5 years of engineering school and I didn't. My company does pay PE's more though.

In reply to Ian F:

I didn't get my PE license until I was 40. In Minnesota the rules are such that I didn't have to take the EIT exam (or as it's called now the Fundamentals of Engineering) since I had enough work experience. Still, the PE exam was no fun, that many years out of school...I had to study my head off, re-learning things I hadn't done for 20 years.

Yeah, I have already encountered people with some nice bits of paper on their walls look down on me because I didn't have the same. That was at a call center, and the position (Team "Manager") didn't require additional schooling. It's already something I'm prepared to deal with, and fully expect in a field that traditionally requires a degree.

Hopefully you won't have to deal with very many of those degree snobs...they're usually not as good as they think they are anyway.

In reply to stuart in mn:

Right... Passing the FE exam makes you an "EIT" (Engineer in Training) until you pass the PE exam.

Yes, every now and then, I (who went to school for journalism) get scared as I am explaining what seems to me Thermodynamics 101 to a PE with nearly 20 years of experience (this happened to me last week).

In reply to stuart in mn:

Thanks Stuart. I looked into it a bit when I lived in MN, but hadn't really looked into it in NC. There would/will be a lot of studying and dusting off parts of my brain that haven't been used since college to get ready for the exam, but if they will let me sit for it, I really need to do it.