Any Pilots Here?

I need another new, expensive hobby (cars, horses, and sailing aren't taking enough of my time/money) so I've been thinking of getting my private pilot certification. Anyone here fly for fun? Anyone get a recent certification?

I'd like to know how much I should budget for training (most palces seem to be around $8k-$10k with flight time) and beyond fuel, how much does it cost fly per hour in something like a 152 or 172. What about annual expensenses like the plane's annual and insurance? Any other advice to someone thinking of taking the plunge?

My father-in-law used to own his own plane. He said it's cheaper for him to rent a plane when he wants to fly that to pay for the upkeep and storage of owning his own.

Learn to skydive first. It gives you more options while learning to fly

I learned to fly before I learned to drive. As such, I can't really tell you the costs because my dad bank-rolled the whole thing (he got his CFI two months after I got my license). I wish I still had the money to fly, but I've had to resort to an inexpensive hobby like track days.

Gas is expensive, but certainly not the full operating cost of the airplane. You've nailed most of the other big expenses, but expect the engine to be a little oil thirsty, and to have to deal with things breaking. People on this board think 20 years old is just fine for cars. Most pilots wish their planes were that young (I learned in a '49 Piper Clipper). I'd estimate that the operating costs on an airplane are an additional 50%-100% on top of the cost of fuel.

Unless you're independently wealthy, owning the plane yourself is not the way to go. Renting will actually be cheaper. Another option, would be to find one or two similarly minded guys, and share all the costs of a Cessna or something.

Oh, and don't discount the 150 Aerobat. I've come to the conclusion that it is the Miata of the aviation world: 2 seat, low horsepower, dependable, full-acro capable.

Some classmates of mine bought a L-29 Delfin, a MIG-17 and a MIG-21. If I recall, the L-29 cost about $300/hr to fly and the MIG-17 was about $1K/hr. The MIG-21 was a basket case then, but I think they have it flying now too.

Hey, if you're going to spend money like a Democrat, do it right.

I took lessons in Cessna 150s and 152s in college and also flew my Uncles 182. It's something I would like to take up again someday when I can afford it.

I have a cousin who is a former aircraft mechanic for the airlines. I once suggested to him that we go out and find an old Cessna 150 to rebuild. I like the little 150s but the Aerobat is kind of a rare bird.

I used to Hang Glide, once you get some time and higher take off points it's flying. Cheap too. Airplane vs Hang Glider is like Crown Vic vs small motorcycle. HG you have the wind in your face, slower speeds and much faster reaction times. You can land anywhere, not so some planes.

I always wanted to try Sail Planing. Costs more, pilot cert isn't required but helpful.

I tried skydiving, nah. I can see where that could become, not boring, maybe mundane, that may not be the right word either.

About 10 years ago, it cost about $75/hr. Now its $150/hr and the instructor is $55. You'll need at least 40 hours. Ground school isn't required, but comes highly recommended.

Since you're a GRM reader, I'll assume you like to build. Built your own plane. This opens a lot of options. Loke here for the best info http://www.eaa.org/

Also, are you doing this for fun or a job? Look into a sport pilot certificate. 20 hrs. required and you don't need a medical, just a valid drivers licence.

I'm looking at it for fun and for business. I'm relocating to Iowa so sailing is coming to an end and I need a way to (occasionally) commute to my business which will still be in Michigan. I thought flying could cut a 7 hour drive down to 3 hours by not having to circle around Lake Michigan or go through Chicago (that and going over 100 mph).

I've been browsing and it looks like a decent, entry level plane (say a Cassna 152) can be had for under $20000 which wouldn't be bad. I just don't know if that means in terms on maintance and insurance costs. Th problem with a sport pilot cert is that you can only fly LSAs which means buying a new or nearly new plane and spending $80k plus so I'm concentrating on a regular pilot cert.

The rental costs I've seen around what will become my new locality are $80 to $100 per hour for a 152 or 172 including fuel.

Keep the information and anecdotes coming. They're much appreciated!

I'll share my limited experience. In college I wanted to learn to fly. I procured the services of a flight trainer who was surprisingly cheap ($20/hr), and we used a Piper Archer 2 (I think it was $140/hr including fuel). That was in 1998. It consisted of an hour or two of instruction, and an hour of in-flight training about three times a week.

I got to $1400 at about 10 hours of flight time (the instructor helped out by not charging me full time some days) and I ran out of money. I desperately wanted to finish (still do) but that's just all I had to spend.

Its lots of fun, but as I learned more about it I realized that its more of a hobby instead of a useful thing. I had visions of flying up to Canada to our cabin, or impressing a date by taking her to some restaurant far away, but the costs are just really high, and until you do a complete pre-flight check, file a flight plan, get off the ground, pay for fuel, pay to park the plane at your destination.... its cheaper and shorter to drive.

Private license is day-only, and only if the ceiling is high enough. I think I'd rather go all the way to instrument so I have more options.

I'm not reading all of that.

I flew through high school and most of college. In fact, I stopped right as I was starting my cross-country flights. It wasn't expensive for me as a student to do an hour of flying a week. Really, that's all the time you NEED to do most work. I did a few really cool flights as well - one from York Airport (THV) to Bloomsburg (where I used to go to school). It was the most beautiful thing I've ever seen--the mountains, the water, the ridge I flew over as I was on my downwind, the birds hogging the runway--I'll take it up again as soon as my job situation stablizes.

Actually, what got me out of it was when I did my internship during the summer. I had the money, but the timing and weather never seemed to work out. When it gets hot outside, it may LOOK like a beautiful blue sky day, but that blue sky is the result of a E36 M3 load of water vapor hovering 1,000 AGL (above ground level). Needless to say, you aren't flying VFR (visual flight reference) with 20 feet of visibility. I needed to fly in the morning and my instructor wouldn't get up that early or work on weekends.

Do it. DO IT! Cessna 172 FTW!!! (150s are OK too, but if it's hot outside and you have a heavy instructor, have fun getting to pattern altitude!)

Salanis wrote: Oh, and don't discount the 150 Aerobat. I've come to the conclusion that it is the Miata of the aviation world: 2 seat, low horsepower, dependable, full-acro capable.

No. This is incorrect. When you're 5'10" and your knees are in your face, you're not in a Miata--you're in a Berkley. Fun plane though. I learned initially in a 1967 C150. It was red and yellow. Yellow wings, red fuselage with yellow stripes. We called it Happy Meal. A lot of things were broken in that plane, but I loved it. It moved to Florida a few years back though. N2763S was her tail number. I'll remember that plane forever.

I was going to dress up as Ronald McDonald when I soloed in it. But then I discovered that the instructor cuts the back of your shirt out when you land for the first time by yourself and don't die.

I've owned ~This~ for the last 12 years.

It's a 1941 Aeronca 65T. Strictly a "hobby plane"; not for any serious use.

Because of my increased vintage racing in the last few years, I've had very little time to fly it (or anything else).

I really like flying, but like most of us, my free time isn't unlimited.......and I like racing better.

Unless you're absolutely passionate about owning your own plane, I'd recommend renting. And joining a local flight club (and renting one of their planes) is a great idea.

curtis73 wrote: Private license is day-only, and only if the ceiling is high enough. I think I'd rather go all the way to instrument so I have more options.

That is incorrect. A private pilot can legally fly at night. You're required to have farther visibility though.

If you're planning to use the airplane to commute, keep in mind that flying is much more dependent on weather than driving is. You will need to get detailed weather briefings.

Also, just because you can fly over Lake Michigan, doesn't mean that you should. If there is a problem, you want to be able to put the airplane down on solid, level ground. Flying over large bodies of water is nerve wracking.

You also will not want to fly over any large body of water at night (even though it is legal), without an instrument rating. Water doesn't have lights on it, neither do mountains. Which means that you lack a visual reference for the ground. You will not be able to know which way is up. This is what killed JFK Jr.

There's also the issue of airspace. You'll want to avoid the Class B airspace surrounding O'Hare. I'm guessing your intended commute path would put you right through a chunk of that class B airspace. I'm not sure I've ever flown into class B. I don't want too. It's way too busy, and some little Cessna is the least of ATC's worries. You'll most likely just get stuck circling just outside of the airspace for half an hour.

There are some cheaper LSAs. There just older. Things like Piper Cubs, Aeronicas, Lyscombes, etc...all qualify.

Don't fool your self into thinking a homebuilt is a simple, crude flyer. I say that beyond the government's black projects, the EAAs Oshkosh is the real place to see true aviation innovation.

In addition to all of this, look into the Civil Air Patrol.

Depending on where you live that can get some discounts, and when you reach a certain number of hours, it can give you a chance to fly cheaper, if not for free.http://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/html/index.htm

Appleseed wrote: There are some cheaper LSAs. There just older. Things like Piper Cubs, Aeronicas, Lyscombes, etc...all qualify. Don't fool your self into thinking a homebuilt is a simple, crude flyer. I say that beyond the government's black projects, the EAAs Oshkosh is the real place to see true aviation innovation.

If anybody here could find me a flying club where I could learn to fly old Piper Cubs and some of the other old taildraggers I might consider starting up lessons again.

I said it before and I'll say it again: if you can do the Challenge, you can build a plane. (for cheap)

Appleseed wrote: I said it before and I'll say it again: if you can do the Challenge, you can build a plane. (for cheap)

+1 I've tried to talk my dad into going in on building a plane for years....one of these days he'll cave.

The biggest expense in building your own comes in buying the engine and instruments analog gauges are cheaper, but the new flat panels are something else to fly behind. That and the FADEC engine management systems are impressive.

U could always check out kit planes that have a quick build program. I forget the name of the company but there's an Austrailian company that makes a cub/mule looking kit that claims to virtually Jump off the ground with a 15 knot headwind, and lands with something less than 300ft. Cruise is rather slow but I've always thought that kit with some floats on it would rock for finding the prime fishing spots along the flats around here.

The EZ series of planes are cool as heck to watch fly, I don't have any stick time in one, but I remember watching one fly at the Reno air races years ago. Luscombe just announced a new LSA that starts at 89k, and comes in polished aluminum. Only supposed to burn between 5 and 10 gph depending on how fast u want to run, if I remember correctly it's supposed to run about 120 mph on less than 10gph. But if u wanna go whole hog, there's the Lopresti Fury, 200 hp and 180knts as well as light acro certified. Or for big money theres the pitts or special aircraft for the sports enthusiast. If you want more than 2 seats there's the Colombia aircraft, u want expensive..... the 400 kicks along and will cut ur commute big time.

Yeah I know tooo many options....don't know if I could choose just one. I've been flying with my old man now for almost 18 years, he got his private certificate when I was 12 while my parents were divorced, and it was love at first hop for myself. I have yet to go get my own certificate due to money concerns. Talked to a guy that runs a flight school out of a dirt strip near me and he told me 5-6k to get my license depending on how long I needed the instructor. Also said he would work out partial payment for work performed around the school.

PS: If you decide to go through with the whole pilots license thing, be warned of the bigger engined small aircraft, say a C206 , when u go to execute a go around don't just reach up and slam the throttle to the wall, the torque of that big 500+ cube engine will literally roll the aircraft for u. Most instructors I've met will let u discover this on ur own. They're just ready to reach up and throttle back for you when u do it.

Salanis wrote:

curtis73 wrote: Private license is day-only, and only if the ceiling is high enough. I think I'd rather go all the way to instrument so I have more options.

That is incorrect. A private pilot can legally fly at night. You're required to have farther visibility though.

You're right... I just paraphrased incorrectly.

I also think that flying low-wing makes for a better training. The trim-airspeed relationship is more stable on most low-wings, but that only comes from my experience training in Archers and 172s. That could be different in other birds.

curtis73 wrote: I also think that flying low-wing makes for a better training. The trim-airspeed relationship is more stable on most low-wings, but that only comes from my experience training in Archers and 172s. That could be different in other birds.

Bwahahaha! I learned in a short-winged piper; rag-and-tube, highwing, taildragger, with full-span ailerons (no flaps), sticks, and brake pedals only on the left. I didn't make anything easy on myself. Going from that to a 150 was a joke. Landing is the biggest hurdle in flying.

I suppose a low-wing can give you a bit better visibility while you're turning base, but I really don't think it's that big a deal.

I've got a friend with a cub that says I can use it to train in. Do you think I could find an instructor that would train me in a cub? No starter!

Someday I'd love to fly (though as with Aeronca, I think I'd rather be racing), but my cousin, who is a pilot, tells me I need to jump at this opportunity of a free plane to get my license in.

Clem

Clem go for it, you're prob gonna have to pay for some time in a "modern" aircraft with a starter, especially with your checkride. Find an "older" cfi that has been flying for a long time, they don't tend to have the qualms about things like that, that some younger guys do.

Especially with solo time it will make getting your license MUCH MUCH cheaper just paying for fuel. Just make sure u get some instructor time in a taildragger b4 trying to solo in it, landing is a bit different.

A cub is a great airplane. Absolutely take that opportunity for free use of that airplane. You might want to eventually use something different to take your checkride in, but flight time is flight time, and there's no better deal than free. I don't see why you couldn't get an electric starter installed on that cub.

Fly it while you have the opportunity.

And landing a tail dragger is very different from landing a trike gear plane. Having the main gear up front puts the center of drag in front of the center of force. You need to stay 3 steps ahead of the plane to keep the cg behind the mains. If it goes outside, you'll groundloop.

Landing in a crosswind is pretty tough. You can't crab into the wind. You need to learn to put it down on one wheel.

Salanis wrote: I don't see why you couldn't get an electric starter installed on that cub.

What, and ruin it?!?

Armstrong Starters...simple and reliable!