I have a few ideas I'm thinking of patenting. Some research shows that costs and opinions vary widely on the subject. I was hoping someone here had some firsthand experience going through the process and if it was worth it. I could probably start making my product myself easily but what if there is already a patent out there? The US web site is no help at all.
I do- but honestly, my process experience is not good..... Lets put it this way- my name is on them, but I don't own them...
Depending on the idea, it's worth it. Especailly if you know someone would be willing to pay for the idea- you can them license the idea to companies, and earn some nice royalties.
If it's not really marketable, well- it's hard to say that it's worth the time, money, and effort.
I have my name on four patents so far. The patent process is one for the VERY patient. Fortunately for me, all of my patents were handled by company lawyers (which means, of course, that they are not my property). I have one application in at the moment - we'll see where that goes.
Generally, the first response from the patent office is, "We don't understand this, so every claim is denied." Then, after explaining the specifics to them for a year or two, they pop up with, "ah, the patent is invalid because XYZ" where XYZ is actually an argument FOR the patent when one understands the prior art. So, the fight continues. Arrrrgh...
OTOH, "my" patents are all for obscure manufacturing or rocket engine technology, so I don't know how similar the patent process is for something that would actually be profitable, i.e. a truly good idea.
Well my patents would be my own. I'm looking more from personal experience rather than having your employer take care of the payments and part of the process. My ideas are so ridiculously simple I couldn't believe no one had thought of it yet-hence my apprehension that I'd be wasting my time and money trying to file. In fact I'd wager a large percentage of forum members would buy the product if it were cheap enough. However my searches have turned up nothing so far.
There are a few good discussions over at Practical Machinist concerning this.
Basically:
If you have a patent you also have to defend it.
It's hard to defend (esp. if the chinese copy it) without boatloads of money on top of the money it costs to get a patent.
Patents are best used for obscure technology and drugs. :)
If you have a good idea, make it and sell it.
I make stuff and sell it, and deal with a bunch of people who make stuff to sell.
I know some people with patents that aren't worth anything, never made a dime and lost of course the cost of the patent. It's an ego thing in many cases.
-James
mike wrote: I have my name on four patents so far. The patent process is one for the VERY patient. Fortunately for me, all of my patents were handled by company lawyers (which means, of course, that they are not my property). I have one application in at the moment - we'll see where that goes. Generally, the first response from the patent office is, "We don't understand this, so every claim is denied." Then, after explaining the specifics to them for a year or two, they pop up with, "ah, the patent is invalid because XYZ" where XYZ is actually an argument FOR the patent when one understands the prior art. So, the fight continues. Arrrrgh... OTOH, "my" patents are all for obscure manufacturing or rocket engine technology, so I don't know how similar the patent process is for something that would actually be profitable, i.e. a truly good idea.
Did you say Rocket Engine? I'm intrigued.
See I got this Spitfire that could use some help....... It's for personal use.
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jamscal wrote: There are a few good discussions over at Practical Machinist concerning this. Basically: If you have a patent you also have to defend it. It's hard to defend (esp. if the chinese copy it) without boatloads of money on top of the money it costs to get a patent. Patents are best used for obscure technology and drugs. :) If you have a good idea, make it and sell it. ____________ I make stuff and sell it, and deal with a bunch of people who make stuff to sell. I know some people with patents that aren't worth anything, never made a dime and lost of course the cost of the patent. It's an ego thing in many cases. -James
I'm leaning towards making and selling. The problem is what if a big company makes and sells more than me? Don't I need the patent to protect me. Sure the Chinese will copy anything, but won't a patent keep others (here) from producing my product themselves out of fear of being sued?
Another thought is what if by "making it and selling it myself" I really mean subcontracting production to a pre-existing company so that I can sell it without having to build a factory from scratch? Even if I kept the tooling couldn't they continue production on their own once the contract was up if there was no patent?
I agree defending a patent would probably be even more expensive then the patent itself. What I'm wondering is if having the patent-or patent pending-might be enough of a deterrent for theft so that defending it would be less necessary.
TRoglodyte wrote: Did you say" Rocket Engine"? I'm intrigued. See I got this Spitfire that could use some help....... It's for personal use.
Yes, pump fed, liquid propellant rocket engines are what I do these days. Mostly designing, building, and testing them.
I haven't stopped bringing up the idea of a rocket powered Mini yet...
I have a buddy that has 10 patents through his job at Motorola. When I see them in his home office hanging on his wall I go home and yell at myself about being a loser since all I have are old Datsun Road and Track advertisements from the late 1960's hanging on my wall.
Idiot!
A reputable shop won't steal your idea, they're in business to make parts to print, not be involved in marketing untested products to who knows what customer.
That said, you could have one company make part A, and another part B.
Also, don't go pick up your parts and say "These are making me a fortune." or otherwise brag, or don't say "I'm selling these in the back of X magazine for $30 per."
I'm not an expert, but this really is a common discussion on some of the boards I'm on.
tThey say there's a thousand ways around a patent, a slightly different way to accomplish the same thing, a tab instead of a knob, I don't know.
There is a value in being first to market with a good idea.
There is a big value in good customer service.
There are a bunch of people making less than 1000 of their products a year, making a good living.
I think you're in Louisville, right? I am too and know some of the local shops. I run my own welding/fab business too if your needs fall that way.
-James
jamscal wrote: I think you're in Louisville, right? I am too and know some of the local shops. I run my own welding/fab business too if your needs fall that way. -James
I might have to take you up on that.
I like minis. Very robust . Lawyer up .
I'm not lawyer, but a cheaper way to test the waters of sellability could be a provisional patent application. It requires much less disclosure than a full patent (pretty much just a drawing and description - no claims, disclosures, etc). Basically (as I understand it, I may be wrong) you file this application with the patent office and you are protected for a year. If someone tries to rip off your invention (within a year of your filing the provisional application) you can file for a full patent and the PTO will use the date of your provisional application as the initial date of your real patent, so the guy who tried to rip off your design will effectively be ripping it off after you've filed for a patent, even though you didn't really file for a full patent until after he tried to rip off your design.
If you try selling your product for a year and nobody buys it, you can just walk away and not be out as much money as if you had gotten a full patent.
This is just going from memory, and I may have misunderstood it when it was originally explained to me, so I may be wrong. But look into it, it may be a good way to test the market.
Bob
mike wrote: I have my name on four patents so far. The patent process is one for the VERY patient. Fortunately for me, all of my patents were handled by company lawyers (which means, of course, that they are not my property). I have one application in at the moment - we'll see where that goes. Generally, the first response from the patent office is, "We don't understand this, so every claim is denied." Then, after explaining the specifics to them for a year or two, they pop up with, "ah, the patent is invalid because XYZ" where XYZ is actually an argument FOR the patent when one understands the prior art. So, the fight continues. Arrrrgh... OTOH, "my" patents are all for obscure manufacturing or rocket engine technology, so I don't know how similar the patent process is for something that would actually be profitable, i.e. a truly good idea.
You've got patents for rocket engine parts? Can we be friends? Also. is rocket science REALLY that difficult?
In reply to Schmidlap:
Interesting to note that one opinion of the provisional is that its all you really need if you re-up every year. The other thing I like is that it gives me time to actually make some money on the product and build up enough cash to complete the process. In theory at least.
i'm currently in the process, personally rather than for an employer. my co-inventor and i created the first draft of the patent application, then formed an LLC with an intellectual property attorney as our third partner, and assigned the ownership of the patent application to the LLC. he's a partner in a big firm and is highly respected in this IP space, so he's been able to save us a lot of $ on the process -- still, i think we've spent about $50k on IP so far.
Yes, you must be patient. it is indeed a slow process.
Yes, you must be prepared to defend. But sometimes defending just means negotiating a reasonable royalty from someone who has better means of production / distribution.
During our provisional period, we worked on additional claims, cleaned up some of the original artwork, etc. the provisional serves as a "hey buddy, hold my place in line while i finish shopping". the revised doc take the place of the provisional without losing place in line.
I just saw an ad on TV by Legalzoom for a $199.00 provisional patent. Don't know anything about it but the timing was spot on! Scott
AngryCorvair wrote: i'm currently in the process, personally rather than for an employer. my co-inventor and i created the first draft of the patent application, then formed an LLC with an intellectual property attorney as our third partner, and assigned the ownership of the patent application to the LLC. he's a partner in a big firm and is highly respected in this IP space, so he's been able to save us a lot of $ on the process -- still, i think we've spent about $50k on IP so far. Yes, you must be patient. it is indeed a slow process. Yes, you must be prepared to defend. But sometimes defending just means negotiating a reasonable royalty from someone who has better means of production / distribution. During our provisional period, we worked on additional claims, cleaned up some of the original artwork, etc. the provisional serves as a "hey buddy, hold my place in line while i finish shopping". the revised doc take the place of the provisional without losing place in line. my patent application
Your first name is actually Hugh?!?!? I don't know what to believe anymore.
16vCorey wrote: Your first name is actually Hugh?!?!? I don't know what to believe anymore.
His given name was Hugh G. Rection, he changed it for business purposes.
Wally wrote:16vCorey wrote: Your first name is actually Hugh?!?!? I don't know what to believe anymore.His given name was Hugh G. Rection, he changed it for business purposes.
Yeah, no sense getting sued for false advertising.
Spitsix wrote: I just saw an ad on TV by Legalzoom for a $199.00 provisional patent. Don't know anything about it but the timing was spot on! Scott
I've seen that too. From what I can gather you get what you pay for and they're being sued in several states.
mndsm wrote: You've got patents for rocket engine parts? Can we be friends? Also. is rocket science REALLY that difficult?
Not yet, the rocket patents are filed but not granted. The manufacturing stuff is what i have so far.
Rocket science (or rocket engineering) is anything from dead simple, up to devilishly complex, depending on the task. Designing, and refining, a liquid/liquid, pump-fed, regeneratively-cooled rocket engine is quite a challenge. Getting the engine to start reliably, restart as needed, and give the desired performance is just as difficult, if not more so. Hell, even the valves for the engine are a huge challenge. Most of the propellants available are one or more of the following: cryogenic, toxic, mutagenic, hypergolic, corrosive, violently reactive. Yuck. Fortunately, I work with some fairly benign stuff.
Oh man, that sounded stuffy and boring. Rocket engines are harder than burning charcoal in a coffee can, but easier than building megaton-class thermonuclear bombs. Well, a little easier, anyway.
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