In reply to DaewooOfDeath :
Well, the context certainly explains a lot of your fundamental outlook. You grew up in nearly universal chaos and conflict, so of course you have developed coping strategies and a power-forward outlook centered around establishing a safe niche for yourself.
To your very very great credit, you seem to have avoided becoming an aggressor and have focused on the defensive side.
Now that you have (more or less) escaped the chaotic environment of your family life and original location, you are entering the decompression phase. That decompression is complicated somewhat by the differing cultural biases of your new home, so you are having to relearn not one but two new societal systems: 1) living in a community that is not based on fear, theft, and destruction, and 2) the general conformist expectations and rigid hierarchy of status in East Asian culture.
So let me say flat out that I think you're doing great so far.
Your genetics are probably going to keep you a gringo to some extent, no matter how hard you try, but that's not changeable, so just keep working with it. I don't think you need to try to become "more Japanese than Japan", but it will serve you well to continue developing your understanding of and sensitivity to Japanese culture. Just doing your best to avoid making mistakes in etiquette should be enough and should be appreciated by those you interact with.
Continuing to improve your Japanese language skills should go a long way. For instance, in France, many people speak usable English. However, if you approach them only in English, they're likely to just blow you off and pretend they don't. But if you make any effort at all, even just learning the French for "Hello, sir, pardon me, my French sucks, but can you help me?" they are often willing to help. I can only imagine that your efforts to learn Japanese are appreciated the same way.
The other half of your task is to learn that most of the social environment is not as chaotic as what you grew up in. Most people are ambivalent to most other people by default, and a little courtesy goes a long way. Most people are not going to anticipate a potential for a deeply important, high stakes interaction most of the time.
For instance, another reading of your peanut allergy example could go like this:
Someone tells you they have a peanut allergy just as a topic of discussion, not as an admission of weakness. They almost certainly wouldn't consider it a demonstration of their trust in you. It would just be a statement of fact. And in return, you might have the allergen menu sent over as a simple act of empathy and a gesture of courtesy, rather than to prove the point that you are covering for their vulnerability.
Let me restate that I think your self-awareness is great and I have confidence that you will learn to adapt to a more stable, lower-pressure environment. Just keep an eye on your own responses. When you find yourself overthinking a situation in terms of conflict and strategy, see if you can reframe the interaction in terms of empathy and courtesy between friends (even if they're not actual friends). That won't always be right either; there is still a general need for situational awareness and self -protection. But I think you've had to be at Defcon 2 or 3 for so long, you need to consciously let yourself dial it back to 4 and eventually 5.
Good luck and please keep us posted on your progress. We're always here to listen and even if there is the occasional shiny happy person, no one here can actually hurt you even if they wanted to. The worst they can do is be a dick and dicks are easily ignored.
In reply to Duke :
Unless its Randy (lolzers)
In reply to DaewooOfDeath :
Going to Maslow's hierarchy of needs as a simplification, it sound like you grew up in an environment that may have only mostly met your most basic physiological needs. So your learned behaviors were mostly focused on attaining the second tier of safety needs for yourself. You now find yourself in an environment where your safety needs are all being met too.
For people who grew up in an environment with all their physiological AND safety needs met, their learned behaviors were all focused on love and belonging, esteem, and self-actualization.
Here's the rub though. The behaviors for love and belonging are generally compatible with the behaviors for the higher tiers of esteem and self-actualization. However, the behaviors for physiological and safety needs in an environment not naturally that way may often run contradictory the behaviors for success in the subsequent tiers. That's not to say they don't still have value as you grow, but they will hold your growth back if you cling too tightly to them. They are not a natural direct carryover, and must evolve along with you.
So for somebody who never had to worry about safety, as Duke noted, they may not even register your sending the allergen free menu as having any connotations to somebody being willing and able to threaten their physical safety, because there are no interactions with you that could possibly warrant such a response. You're not (I would hope) going to slip them something laced with peanut butter because of some perceived slight. Hell, even if they undermined your job or something, a job is not worth going to jail for (even 'attempted') murder. You just get another damn job if you need to. So while sending the menu might be a good basis for a working relationship, choosing to do so at this point will go a lot further if it's obviously and genuinely coming from a place of love and belonging than from safety.
Beyond that, while it may demonstrate you're paying attention, it could also come across as you being somewhere between a well-intentioned weirdo and a needy creeper. Same with this whole concept of inviting people to lie to you and showing them 'false' weaknesses. Such things come across as insincere and/or manipulative. In the context of of this new environment, these are all also red flags that can actually have the opposite effect and cause people to become more wary of you.
Yes, knowing people can hurt you but don't is an exercise in trust, but when you choose to tie that trust to safety you hold it back from becoming the foundation for everything greater than that.
I also find it interesting when you said you found your maestro-boss' weakness, the proceeded with a description of what others might call his strength. It would seem that what the physiological and safety mindsets may see as weakness, the other mindsets may see as strength. People who make their weaknesses their strengths don't feel the need to hide them.
You also mentioned previously your core value relating to protecting the people you choose to surround yourself with. Have you noticed that you didn't tie this to anything reciprocal? Neither their ability to use your weaknesses against you, even if they technically could, or what you can get from them in return? You're also sharing a whole lotta weaknesses (and subsequently strengths) here, that I'm guessing you don't share just anywhere else on the internet. That the trust that comes from love and belonging rather than safety, and is where most of the people you interact with all are coming from as well.
When people openly share their 'weaknesses' with you, they're doing so because they see your demonstrated trustworthiness as being one of your fundamental moral values rather than a conditional transaction with you. In this new environment, proving them wrong can also actually end up being just as disastrous for you as for them.
Whether it's jumping social classes, starting a new job, moving to a new country, or some combination there of, new (physical and/or emotional) environments cause us to revert to ensuring our base needs. This is where your history serves you well in this regard vs how so many others cope with this much more unfamiliar sensation to them. Just don't let it also become what holds you back as you continue to settle in. You have proven yourself strong, resilient, and adaptable, and those traits will serve you well in your continued evolution.
You'll never be Japanese. Become so awesome they emulate you, and you won't have to worry about it.
Duke said:In reply to DaewooOfDeath :
Well, the context certainly explains a lot of your fundamental outlook. You grew up in nearly universal chaos and conflict, so of course you have developed coping strategies and a power-forward outlook centered around establishing a safe niche for yourself.
To your very very great credit, you seem to have avoided becoming an aggressor and have focused on the defensive side.
Now that you have (more or less) escaped the chaotic environment of your family life and original location, you are entering the decompression phase. That decompression is complicated somewhat by the differing cultural biases of your new home, so you are having to relearn not one but two new societal systems: 1) living in a community that is not based on fear, theft, and destruction, and 2) the general conformist expectations and rigid hierarchy of status in East Asian culture.
So let me say flat out that I think you're doing great so far.
Your genetics are probably going to keep you a gringo to some extent, no matter how hard you try, but that's not changeable, so just keep working with it. I don't think you need to try to become "more Japanese than Japan", but it will serve you well to continue developing your understanding of and sensitivity to Japanese culture. Just doing your best to avoid making mistakes in etiquette should be enough and should be appreciated by those you interact with.
Continuing to improve your Japanese language skills should go a long way. For instance, in France, many people speak usable English. However, if you approach them only in English, they're likely to just blow you off and pretend they don't. But if you make any effort at all, even just learning the French for "Hello, sir, pardon me, my French sucks, but can you help me?" they are often willing to help. I can only imagine that your efforts to learn Japanese are appreciated the same way.
The other half of your task is to learn that most of the social environment is not as chaotic as what you grew up in. Most people are ambivalent to most other people by default, and a little courtesy goes a long way. Most people are not going to anticipate a potential for a deeply important, high stakes interaction most of the time.
For instance, another reading of your peanut allergy example could go like this:
Someone tells you they have a peanut allergy just as a topic of discussion, not as an admission of weakness. They almost certainly wouldn't consider it a demonstration of their trust in you. It would just be a statement of fact. And in return, you might have the allergen menu sent over as a simple act of empathy and a gesture of courtesy, rather than to prove the point that you are covering for their vulnerability.
Let me restate that I think your self-awareness is great and I have confidence that you will learn to adapt to a more stable, lower-pressure environment. Just keep an eye on your own responses. When you find yourself overthinking a situation in terms of conflict and strategy, see if you can reframe the interaction in terms of empathy and courtesy between friends (even if they're not actual friends). That won't always be right either; there is still a general need for situational awareness and self -protection. But I think you've had to be at Defcon 2 or 3 for so long, you need to consciously let yourself dial it back to 4 and eventually 5.
Good luck and please keep us posted on your progress. We're always here to listen and even if there is the occasional shiny happy person, no one here can actually hurt you even if they wanted to. The worst they can do is be a dick and dicks are easily ignored.
Thanks, I appreciate it. The language is coming, and people appreciate the effort (I'm doing 4 hours of class a week on average), so I don't think it's going to be a major problem going forward. The idea that many people take safety for granted is very alien to me. Honestly it feels careless almost to the point of negligent, but taking safety for granted is clearly not catching up to most people here in this new environment, so it's equally likely I'm the one who needs to adjust.
As for the peanut gallery, it's two common and completely forgivable category mistakes leading to that reaction. The first is to equate moral luck (the luck to avoid making damned if you do, damned if you don't decisions) with "goodness." The second is to equate harmlessness with "goodness." Making these errors is not just easy to do, it feels good, and it's something many people never even think about. I'll just leave this right here if you guys are interested. https://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17095&start=15#google_vignette
Driven5 said:In reply to DaewooOfDeath :
Going to Maslow's hierarchy of needs as a simplification, it sound like you grew up in an environment that may have only mostly met your most basic physiological needs. So your learned behaviors were mostly focused on attaining the second tier of safety needs for yourself. You now find yourself in an environment where your safety needs are all being met too.
For people who grew up in an environment with all their physiological AND safety needs met, their learned behaviors were all focused on love and belonging, esteem, and self-actualization.
Here's the rub though. The behaviors for love and belonging are generally compatible with the behaviors for the higher tiers of esteem and self-actualization. However, the behaviors for physiological and safety needs in an environment not naturally that way may often run contradictory the behaviors for success in the subsequent tiers. That's not to say they don't still have value as you grow, but they will hold your growth back if you cling too tightly to them. They are not a natural direct carryover, and must evolve along with you.
So for somebody who never had to worry about safety, as Duke noted, they may not even register your sending the allergen free menu as having any connotations to somebody being willing and able to threaten their physical safety, because there are no interactions with you that could possibly warrant such a response. You're not (I would hope) going to slip them something laced with peanut butter because of some perceived slight. Hell, even if they undermined your job or something, a job is not worth going to jail for (even 'attempted') murder. You just get another damn job if you need to. So while sending the menu might be a good basis for a working relationship, choosing to do so at this point will go a lot further if it's obviously and genuinely coming from a place of love and belonging than from safety.
Beyond that, while it may demonstrate you're paying attention, it could also come across as you being somewhere between a well-intentioned weirdo and a needy creeper. Same with this whole concept of inviting people to lie to you and showing them 'false' weaknesses. Such things come across as insincere and/or manipulative. In the context of of this new environment, these are all also red flags that can actually have the opposite effect and cause people to become more wary of you.
Yes, knowing people can hurt you but don't is an exercise in trust, but when you choose to tie that trust to safety you hold it back from becoming the foundation for everything greater than that.
I also find it interesting when you said you found your maestro-boss' weakness, the proceeded with a description of what others might call his strength. It would seem that what the physiological and safety mindsets may see as weakness, the other mindsets may see as strength. People who make their weaknesses their strengths don't feel the need to hide them.
You also mentioned previously your core value relating to protecting the people you choose to surround yourself with. Have you noticed that you didn't tie this to anything reciprocal? Neither their ability to use your weaknesses against you, even if they technically could, or what you can get from them in return? You're also sharing a whole lotta weaknesses (and subsequently strengths) here, that I'm guessing you don't share just anywhere else on the internet. That the trust that comes from love and belonging rather than safety, and is where most of the people you interact with all are coming from as well.
When people openly share their 'weaknesses' with you, they're doing so because they see your demonstrated trustworthiness as being one of your fundamental moral values rather than a conditional transaction with you. In this new environment, proving them wrong can also actually end up being just as disastrous for you as for them.
Whether it's jumping social classes, starting a new job, moving to a new country, or some combination there of, new (physical and/or emotional) environments cause us to revert to ensuring our base needs. This is where your history serves you well in this regard vs how so many others cope with this much more unfamiliar sensation to them. Just don't let it also become what holds you back as you continue to settle in. You have proven yourself strong, resilient, and adaptable, and those traits will serve you well in your continued evolution.
Thanks for the feedback, very interesting.
I do want to explain something about the allergen menu, though. The act of sending it over is not intended as a threat. For the person receiving the menu, it's supposed to be an indication of paying attention and looking out for him. Ie, "I am concerned with your safety." For the other people in the restaurant, it indicates that I'm invested in the orderly and safe operation of the social group, and that if you mess with Mr. Allergies, you'll probably have a problem with me, as well. There are a lot of downstream implications here, and one of the nice benefits is that it implies I'm a person with quite high social status/lots of social capital, but there's almost no threat implied, in my experience.
At least no more so than a parent holding their child's hand in a crosswalk. The parent is genuinely looking out for the child, but they are doing so from a higher social position, and it would be very bad if they stopped looking out for the child. There's a reason children, especially small children, tend to look at their parents as superhuman. As for the allergy example specifically, I know a person who gets migraines whenever she eats aspartame. I also know people who slip aspartame into her food when they wish to punish her. I didn't pull this example out of my butt. ;)
I guess I should rephrase some of what I'm calling weaknesses as "things people have to work (hard/constantly) to overcome." The maestro-boss has to over-perform his "Japanese-ing" to cover up for his ethnic liabilities. He's good at this, and it demonstrates both skill and pragmatism on his part. It's also something I can potentially make easier for him so long as I pay enough attention to realize it's both really important to him and probably a lot of work to maintain. If I was predatory, I'd try to exploit this for short term gain. I think the smarter thing is to show that I understand, and that I'm willing to help.
The bad news is that I'm not in a position to help with that very much. I'm still new, and I'm not willing to prioritize Japanese-ing as much as I did and do prioritize Korean-ing. I probably don't have the time or energy to do both at the same time. Which is why I'm shifting to supporting "the working hard to overcome" weakness shared by both maestro-boss and the mayor - making this small university in this small city seem global, cosmopolitan, and attractive to scholars, industrial figures, and government officials from overseas. This I can do, and it's where I'm going to focus my energy.
And you're right, this is different than looking for a weakness to defend myself in case boss-man turns hostile.
carbidetooth said:In reply to DaewooOfDeath :
I have to say I'm impressed with your knowledge of self and likewise the social structure you're involved with. I can't offer much except that the social puzzle was never a high priority for me and I suppose that steered me towards the puzzles I liked and was intuitively good at solving. Inanimate things that were not moving and intangible targets. My affinity to that kind of thing probably limited me in terms of career path, but it suits me and I am grateful for the recognition of where my joy is derived. Mostly retired now so less of a concern. Life is a sort of puzzle where we have the opportunity to find our strengths and joy if we choose to nose around, yeah? Carry on, my friend!
In a philosophy discussion, I really like this sentence.
To Daewoo: thanks for sharing your experiences. As a corn fed midwestern office berkeley living the south - I cannot much relate, but I still find it quite interesting.
In reply to DaewooOfDeath :
For the other people in the restaurant, it indicates that I'm invested in the orderly and safe operation of the social group, and that if you mess with Mr. Allergies, you'll probably have a problem with me, as well. There are a lot of downstream implications here, and one of the nice benefits is that it implies I'm a person with quite high social status/lots of social capital, but there's almost no threat implied, in my experience.
Except that there is still threat implied, at least in your thinking. It's marked in bold right there.
Certainly to me, and I imagine others here, your expanded example highlights what I consider overthinking the situation and framing it in terms of conflict when it doesn't have to be.
I can almost guarantee no one else in that room would think anything beyond, "Oh, that was nice of DoD." Five minutes later no one except Mr. Allergic is even going to remember it.
At least in the West. I have never visited Asia, let alone lived there, so I may be very wrong.
To me, this is an opportunity for to you practice decompression and just make a friendly gesture without elevating it into a strategic move. Again, given your story, I think I can understand how your thought processes developed this way. But I also think it might be helpful to look for places where you can practice thinking less about minor things, because they are no longer critically important in your new life.
Thank you for continuing this discussion. If I go past what you're comfortable with, please let me know.
In reply to Duke :
No problem at all. :)
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