Berkley you Costas...

alfadriver wrote:

JoeyM wrote: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/tag/dgu/

Are those supposed to be examples of guns being used well? Don't really see a lot of "self defence" shootings actually being anywhere near where the law would put the actual punishment had they been caught. Breaking and Entering generally isn't considered a capitol offense..... (then again, people here think that bad car modifications are a capitol offense....)

Breaking and entering is a title applied after the fact. Do I know what the intent of the perpetrator is? What am I, Kreskin?

Yes, it would be possible for an armed civilian revolt to occur, casualties to the population would be extreme, casualties of our infrastructure would be extreme, casualties to our economy would be extreme, etc.....I'm sure you get those points. Its actually what is occurring presently in Syria, the citizens there are highly overpowered by their governments military, yet by numbers they are winning it. Same difference here, our military is less than 10% of our nations population, therefore by sheer numbers, it could happen. I DO NOT FORSEE THIS EVER HAPPENING, BUT IT IS NOT AN IMPOSSIBILITY

Also, the thing to learn is that use of a firearm in self defense is a method of last resort. If I were any good at MS paint I'd make a flow chart to explain it. Essentially its the threat of imminent harm to you or others, of which might not occur until several alternative actions are already exhausted.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to phaze1todd: If you need to explain the context, then why not put the entire amendment into context? Why is the amedment there in the first place? To prevent the government from doing too much, yes? Realistically, do you really think that the US could have a citizen based revolution, if needed? Vs. the most powerful military in the world by a rather wide margin? So if you need to time context the words like that, then we should be able to debate whether the amedment is needed at all, then. Then again, I don't buy your "definitions" any more than mine. You should take a deeper breath. If you need to define that much, then why not limit guns to the well trained milition between 18 and 45? That's what it applied to. No- me, being a reasonable person, who understands that guns are a necessity, think that you can use the word "regulate" to actually regulate, but not ban, arms. Which will go some distance to making them be taken more seriously for more folk. Again, I've been through training, and shoot a gun quite well- and am thankful that I have done that- most just get gun and go. Let's not "should" the training, and make it happen.

deeper breath followed by sigh and facepalm

2nd Ammendment In Context: I can haz gunz.

Yes, let just revamp the Bill of Rights willy nilly! These aren't MY definitions. There are "Cliff Notes" to the Constitution called The Federalist Papers which do define the original intent of the founding fathers.

Also, by the way, the life expectancy in the 1700's was about 35.

alfadriver wrote:

JoeyM wrote:

alfadriver wrote: I also totally don't belive that any non Officer will correctly use their conceled weapon,

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/tag/dgu/

Are those supposed to be examples of guns being used well? Don't really see a lot of "self defence" shootings actually being anywhere near where the law would put the actual punishment had they been caught. Breaking and Entering generally isn't considered a capitol offense.....

Um...not sure where you're going with that. That's the link at my favorite gun blog for all Defensive Gun Use coverage. Each week has numerous examples. Yes, there are B&E cases[*], but here are also assaults and physical attacks. Let's take a look.

Included in the first link: Two neighbors are in a dispute over a lawn sign, and one pulls a knife. He gets shot. Don't threaten people with a deadly weapon.

[EDIT: I see now that you were talking only about concealed carry. This link is related to that. the others I listed are NOT related to concealed carry, but are defensive gun use cases that are relevant to other conversations happening in this thread. Because of that, I'm leaving them up.]

Included in the second link: A home invasion occurs, and the resident - a 70 year old woman - is punched in the face. The perp flees after being shot by her .38

third link: not relevant to this discussion (armed guard with training, not private citizen.)

Included in the fourth link: A home owner is woken by the sound of someone breaking through his glass door. The homeowner calls 911. The intruder yells, “Where are you? I’m going to kill you!” The homeowner yells back that he has a pistol, and that the perp should get out. The perp continues yelling that he is going to kill home owner, and tries to kick the bedroom door down. perp gets shot.

--
[*] - If someone intentionally forces their way into your home while you are there, there is a possibility that they are willing to harm you.

yamaha wrote: Yes, it would be possible for an armed civilian revolt to occur, casualties to the population would be extreme, casualties of our infrastructure would be extreme, casualties to our economy would be extreme, etc.....I'm sure you get those points. Its actually what is occurring presently in Syria, the citizens there are highly overpowered by their governments military, yet by numbers they are winning it. Same difference here, our military is less than 10% of our nations population, therefore by sheer numbers, it could happen. ***I DO NOT FORSEE THIS EVER HAPPENING, BUT IT IS NOT AN IMPOSSIBILITY*** Also, the thing to learn is that use of a firearm in self defense is a method of last resort. If I were any good at MS paint I'd make a flow chart to explain it. Essentially its the threat of imminent harm to you or others, of which might not occur until several alternative actions are already exhausted.

Well put.

Also, as a vet and in an occupation where I work closely with the military, I don't see a high percentage of the military taking arms against the citizenry.

Yes, LAST RESORT! I agree. De-escalate or evade first.

In reply to phaze1todd:

Bingo....

Wow, I had idea this thread would evolve into this. Sorry. I'm going back to my hole now.

Should have...but I didn't.

In reply to JoeyM:

this thread was originally about Bob Costas' gun control rant at halftime a couple weeks ago, then him doubling down the misinformation on various talk shows this/last week. there is a thread on concealed carry and another on how we have too many gun threads in OFF TOPIC for a car forum.

In reply to Strizzo:

plus two that were necroposted in from 2010 or before........

phaze1todd wrote:

yamaha wrote: ...the thing to learn is that use of a firearm in self defense is a method of last resort...

Yes, LAST RESORT!

If I need to tighten a screw and I am carrying a screw driver why would I try something else first? Seems a bit daft.

I always wince when I see this topic come up. I know a lot of people that own, carry and are knowledgeable/proficient in their use. Of all those people, I know not a single person who's intial reaction is to grab iron and let lead fly. EVERYONE, (let me reiterate and explain: EVERYONE= Every. Single. Person.) views their sidearm as a last resort.

Yes, "castle doctrine" means you don't have to retreat. But if I can, I will. I have no desire to end another human life. I do not want to deal with the mental anguish of knowing I ended someone's life, the legal struggles and the notoriety.

"B&E isn't a capital offense". I have 3 dogs in the house, one is an 80lb shephard with the most wicked bark I have ever heard. We have posted "no trespassing. We are fairly secluded and the nearest neighbor is a half mile away, and the nearest "security light" is over a mile away. If someone breaks into my house, it's not for a simple B&E. They are knowingly breaking into house with 3 active dogs hell bent on stopping you. I'm shooting first, asking questions second because that mofo is f'n crazy or high as a kite. either option does not lend itself to me surviving.

I believe education is the main issue with guns and gun violence. Everyone that I have taught (and I have taught a few people) knows the inherent dangers of firearms and don't play with them. EVERYONE should be taught the 4 basic rules and general weapons handling IMO. I think that would slow a lot of the AD's and accidental shootings.

We already have all the laws on the books that we need. Murder is illegal. Robbery is illegal. A felon in possession of a firearm is illegal. MORE legislation is not what we need.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

phaze1todd wrote:

yamaha wrote: ...the thing to learn is that use of a firearm in self defense is a method of last resort...

Yes, LAST RESORT!

If I need to tighten a screw and I am carrying a screw driver why would I try something else first? Seems a bit daft.

But that's the thing, if you don't need to tighten it you won't have a need to use the screwdriver. That's the whole point. Whether you carry a weapon or not, you have to use your SA to know what's going on around you. You have to trust your gut when something doesn't seem right and you avoid it when you can. Not everytime can you avoid being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And not everytime you're in the wrong place will something bad happen. But knowing what is going on around you and what you can and can't do is a good thing to be aware of.

Bobzilla wrote: But that's the thing, if you don't need to tighten it you won't have a need to use the screwdriver. That's the whole point. Whether you carry a weapon or not, you have to use your SA to know what's going on around you. You have to trust your gut when something doesn't seem right and you avoid it when you can. Not everytime can you avoid being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And not everytime you're in the wrong place will something bad happen. But knowing what is going on around you and what you can and can't do is a good thing to be aware of.

I was joking.

In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker:

Buwahahaha......you could probably tighten a screw with the takedown pin of a 1911.....Just sayin

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

Bobzilla wrote: But that's the thing, if you don't need to tighten it you won't have a need to use the screwdriver. That's the whole point. Whether you carry a weapon or not, you have to use your SA to know what's going on around you. You have to trust your gut when something doesn't seem right and you avoid it when you can. Not everytime can you avoid being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And not everytime you're in the wrong place will something bad happen. But knowing what is going on around you and what you can and can't do is a good thing to be aware of.

I was joking.

Damnit... my sarcasm meter is busted again. I JUST had this thing calibrated. A lot of good that did.