4 tens would be an ideal schedule

I love the small company I work for, and not I'm not self employed. You can tell it was started by a couple guys with a passion for the industry and that they actually give a damn about the people that work for them.

Case in point: my wife had a baby 2.5 weeks ago. I only started with the company in June and didn't have any PTO yet so I took a couple days off without pay to help get us home and settled. When I sent in my time off report for the month (I'm salary), they paid me for the time off. And then I got a box from the Main office with an outfit for my daughter, a blanket, a bottle of champagne, and a card signed by the whole office.

Starting Jan 1st I get my 2 weeks vacation, sick time is on an as-needed basis. Next year and the year after I gain an extra week of vacation (max of 4 weeks) which we are encouraged to take and use.

As far as work schedule, I set my own hours. So long as my accounts are taken care of, it doesn't matter when I start or stop. It has helped so much with the baby at home.

Yeah... So long as they don't go out of business or change culturally and I don't leave Alaska, I'm staying here until I retire.

HappyAndy wrote: I onced worked for a graduate of the Joseph Stalin School of Business Management. It took almost 4 years to escape that gulag. I can't believe that no one was killed in that place back then. I left that job nearly 20 years ago, and still occasionally have a nightmare about it!

You were a VW engineer?

In reply to Knurled:

No, but there was rampant cheating of government regulation.

mad_machine wrote: 4 tens would be an ideal schedule

been there done that ... wasn't as great as you think it would be ... after several yrs of it, you realize that you were spending Fri. just sorta recovering from the work week, and so you really just ended up with Sat and Sun off

the place from which I retired, started you at 80 hr of vac per yr (for the first 5 yr) and it went to 120 hrs for the next 3 yrs then 8 hr additional each yr until you were up to 160 .... you could carry over 50% but any more it was use it or lose it

we also got x amount of sick time accrued each yr that rolled over for ever ... but you couldn't get paid for it when you left ... when I retired I had sick time for 13 yrs that had only been tapped into for my heart surgery ...

lots of folk would start calling in sick for weeks prior to they're retirement ... up until the point that they were going to be fired if they missed any more days ... after 3 unexcused absences, you would get a verbal warning, then 3 more and a written warning, then 3 more and a second written warning, then 3 more and suspended for a few days (I don't remember how many) ... eventually you'd reach the point where they'd tell you don't come back ...

I was the only one that built the product that I was responsible for ... and I was the one that had to "teach" my replacement everything I knew in 1 month what I was still learning after 13 yrs .. so ended up taking only 3 or 4 "sick days" before my walking out ... my replacement had zero electronics training, so all the trouble shooting I had able to do, now fell on the engineer over this product line ... now, where I was the only one building these parts, they now have 3 producing (from what I've heard since leaving) 30% less at nearly 3 times the salary

WHERE THE HECK WAS MY MONEY

nervousdog wrote:

Robbie wrote:

OHSCrifle wrote:

Robbie wrote: Attracting and keeping talented staff is one of the largest business challenges, and of course there are many strategies to solve it, but one reason very few companies offer short work weeks is because very few employees actually want it.

Do you have a source for this "reason"? I don't believe it.

Nope no source, other than the reality that few companies offer short work weeks. I know that this is 'using a word to define itself' though. Seriously though, ask around. How many people would take a 20% pay cut to get an extra day per week off? I know a ton of people who say they would prefer it, yet none have actually followed through on asking for it. 20% is a huge difference.

Why would someone have to take a pay cut to get an extra day off? I'd love to work 4 10-hour days and take an extra day during the week.

I guess I haven't really been clear. When I said 'short work weeks' I meant schedules with less than 40 hours/week. I can see how that is confusing.

In my mind, there ARE lots and lots of 4x10 or 4.5x9 (or any other combo) of flexible scheduled jobs available. The ones that are few and far between are the less than 40 hrs/week jobs - that aren't retail/restaurant/part-time. Hospital nurses I think generally work 3x12 hr shifts per week, but those shifts can be at awful times.

OHSCrifle wrote: I used to work 4.5 day weeks, when I was in Charleston SC about a 15 years ago. Fairly common there, IIRC. I'd love to work 3 x 13.33 - Perfect schedule. I'm actually hoping to cut a day and work for 80% of my salary in a few years. Wife works Tu-Fr now and it seems like a great schedule.

I currently work 4.5 day weeks, but often have to travel. Like you, I really want to move to fewer hours for less pay in the future, but I think we are minorities in that respect.

wbjones wrote:

mad_machine wrote: 4 tens would be an ideal schedule

been there done that ... wasn't as great as you think it would be ... after several yrs of it, you realize that you were spending Fri. just sorta recovering from the work week, and so you really just ended up with Sat and Sun off

Disagree with that from my limited experience. I had it for a couple weeks. It was excellent--I was already working probably 9 hours a day anyways. The extra hour was hardly noticeable, and then on Fridays I'd play hockey in the morning at 6AM, come home and put a load of laundry in, go do some grocery shopping, come back and move the laundry, and take a nap for about 1.5 hours. I'd wake up around noon, fold my laundry, eat lunch--at that point I had already done laundry, gotten groceries, and it wasn't even 1PM. Yeah, you're doing small house stuff that isn't really work, but that adds up.

I think it really depends on your personal schedule. As it sits, I don't do jack after work during the normal 8 hour work day. I would however, love having an extra day to go for a ride or do some backpacking.

That being said, I could work a 4-10 schedule if I really wanted, but most of the time I'm tired of staring at the computer after 8 hours.

I think what I may ask for is to have a 2 hour lunch twice a week so I can ride or hike but still be in the office every day.

I did four tens for a while and found it exhausting. The company I was working for at the time also offered unlimited overtime because they had no cost control at all, so I ended up just working more.

It was a good thing I got out of there when I did, because they closed last month with no warning to their ~200 employees! Real nice move there.

mtn wrote:

wbjones wrote:

mad_machine wrote: 4 tens would be an ideal schedule

been there done that ... wasn't as great as you think it would be ... after several yrs of it, you realize that you were spending Fri. just sorta recovering from the work week, and so you really just ended up with Sat and Sun off

Disagree with that from my limited experience. I had it for a couple weeks. It was excellent--I was already working probably 9 hours a day anyways. The extra hour was hardly noticeable, and then on Fridays I'd play hockey in the morning at 6AM, come home and put a load of laundry in, go do some grocery shopping, come back and move the laundry, and take a nap for about 1.5 hours. I'd wake up around noon, fold my laundry, eat lunch--at that point I had already done laundry, gotten groceries, and it wasn't even 1PM. Yeah, you're doing small house stuff that isn't really work, but that adds up.

for the first couple of yrs it was great for me (notice I specified yrs ... but after that is when I reached the "I've had enough of this" ... the first few weeks WERE GREAT" ... the first couple of yrs were ok ... it was after that, and only for me, was where it got old ... for others it was wonderful, you'll have to stay in it for a while to see how well you actually like it

I was also in my 40's when this was going on ... might have been different if I'd been a kid

4-10s works great if you're building cars. Gives you a whole day to get stuff done, instead of trying to wrench in the evenings.

I liked 12's.. 3 on 4 off.. 4 on 3 off.

I had an employer try out 9/80 shift. So worked 5 days one week 9-9.5 hours and then 4 days of 9-9.5 hours and then had Friday off.

I've been doing 4/9's + one friday for years now. Would never go back. We really use the Friday off every other week. Lots of outside work can get done at home but not taking business time off.

My work quirk is a little different. In the common area/break room our supervisor turns the lights off. Like all the lights, all day! It's literally hard to walk through without bumping into things. When asked if we can turn them on his response: "what, are you afraid of the dark?"

Nope, just like to be awake during the day. I spend my time in my office, it's nicer there.

As to the sick leave thing, whenever someone retires they usually have so much accumulated leave they take their last 6 months off with "back pain". It's somewhat frustrating because we can't hire their replacement until they are actually gone so we work short handed for a while.

mtn wrote:

wbjones wrote:

mad_machine wrote: 4 tens would be an ideal schedule

been there done that ... wasn't as great as you think it would be ... after several yrs of it, you realize that you were spending Fri. just sorta recovering from the work week, and so you really just ended up with Sat and Sun off

Disagree with that from my limited experience. I had it for a couple weeks. It was excellent--I was already working probably 9 hours a day anyways. The extra hour was hardly noticeable, and then on Fridays I'd play hockey in the morning at 6AM, come home and put a load of laundry in, go do some grocery shopping, come back and move the laundry, and take a nap for about 1.5 hours. I'd wake up around noon, fold my laundry, eat lunch--at that point I had already done laundry, gotten groceries, and it wasn't even 1PM. Yeah, you're doing small house stuff that isn't really work, but that adds up.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Here's a few of the things I've had to take "vacation" for this year:

-Taking a car to the dealer for a TSB

-Moving an IRA to a different institution

-Dentist appointment

-Drivers license renewal

So many places are only open from 9am until 5pm which is when office workers are trapped in their cubicles. That means the majority of the population has to try to fight for the few appointments that are available outside of regular business hours. Sometimes I just take a random day off work and run errands. You can get so much done when you can walk into a place and be out in 10 minutes rather than waiting several hours in line on the weekend.

Robbie wrote:

nervousdog wrote:

Robbie wrote:

OHSCrifle wrote:

Robbie wrote: Attracting and keeping talented staff is one of the largest business challenges, and of course there are many strategies to solve it, but one reason very few companies offer short work weeks is because very few employees actually want it.

Do you have a source for this "reason"? I don't believe it.

Nope no source, other than the reality that few companies offer short work weeks. I know that this is 'using a word to define itself' though. Seriously though, ask around. How many people would take a 20% pay cut to get an extra day per week off? I know a ton of people who say they would prefer it, yet none have actually followed through on asking for it. 20% is a huge difference.

Why would someone have to take a pay cut to get an extra day off? I'd love to work 4 10-hour days and take an extra day during the week.

I guess I haven't really been clear. When I said 'short work weeks' I meant schedules with less than 40 hours/week. I can see how that is confusing. In my mind, there ARE lots and lots of 4x10 or 4.5x9 (or any other combo) of flexible scheduled jobs available. The ones that are few and far between are the less than 40 hrs/week jobs - that aren't retail/restaurant/part-time. Hospital nurses I think generally work 3x12 hr shifts per week, but those shifts can be at awful times.

I agree with you on your original point. Part-time work makes less and obviously people won't take that to gain time off.

I disagree that there are LOTS of 4x10 and 4.5x9 positions out there. For college educated office workers, 5x10 is pretty normal and almost expected. I have a friend who landed a job at a major auto manufacturer and his salary was based on 5x9 plus one 8-hour Saturday per month.

keynesian "leisure society" my ass, we're working as much today as we were when the 40hr work week was established in 1938.

EDIT: and what's sad about it is that we really don't have a choice in how much we make on a monthly basis without either working for ourselves (risk), working part-time (very little money) or full-time (very little leisure).

more Pheller.. if you believe the hype, we are -more- productive than we have ever been..

I worked 12 hour night shifts, 4 on 4 off for 7 years. It was great for getting stuff done, I would have never been able to rebuild my entire house after it got flooded working 5 days a week. After my last 12 I would sleep a few hours in the am, get up at 10 or 11, then stay up until night. I know some of the Ppl had problems sleeping, but I never did. I also never had kids to deal with or anything.

I love my 3-12's a week. Bunch them together, personally I work 2 on 1 off then another 2 on 1 off then 2 more in those 8 days, and I get 6 days off in a row. Plus I'm able to pick extra if I feel like for the OT. I only work that craziness because I work nights on top of 4 hrs of drive time every shift. It's awesome to not being pressured to finish projects at night to use the next day. Only thing that stinks is when something goes haywire during the working stretch. It has to wait until the work schedule is done.

When I was with the TSA I worked 8 days and 6 off by trading shifts with the other supervisor every 2 weeks. That 9th day was always a slow start, but I was able to race a full schedule and not burn any leave. I also got lots done at home in my shop with the long weekends.

spitfirebill wrote:

ultraclyde wrote:

HappyAndy wrote: In reply to Scottah : Indeed many a fine operation has been ruined that way. It's also hard to advance in to the upper ranks in a place like that when you aren't in the family, regardless of your talent or skills.

I got out of a business I was a principal in for that very reason. Because I wasn't THE principal. Now I'm in a much larger private company that may have some transition issues when the current owner finally decides he's done. But at least it's a much stronger company in every sense. Only time will tell.

I had good friend who was a partner at a local architecture firm. Had been there his whole career. He was responsible for taking the owner to nudie bars and making sure he got home OK. The owner starts slowing down, doing mostly expert witness testimony. Brings the son in to run the place and it goes downhill quickly. My friend left and has now been several other places. He didn't really criticize the old company but I always felt he was pissed. My friend and I used to end up on asbestos projects a lot. They did the abatement design and we managed the project and did air sampling. When he heard I had 2 degrees in entomology, he started calling me bug berkeleyer.

Entomology? Awesome, some of my favorite classes in school.

mad_machine wrote: more Pheller.. if you believe the hype, we are -more- productive than we have ever been..

And in many cases for less compensation.

Reminds me of a story I once heard that involved making bricks for a guy named Pharo....