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Sarah Young
Sarah Young Editorial/Art Assistant
6/9/16 6:43 p.m.

I'm a 30-year-old woman (who, yes, also works here and hardly ever posts). I'm seeing a theme in this thread that I want to address: what women need to do to be safe.

SVreX said: But I also have a 25 yo daughter, and a 12 yo daughter. I have taught them not to go to places they feel unsafe, and most certainly not to go there when their judgement is impaired. If someone is likely to commit a criminal act, I'd rather they be in the best position possible that it not happen to them. ... But my actual response is to teach my daughters about the dangers of alcohol abuse, the nature of blackouts, and the importance of understanding their self worth and strength is not measured in their capacity to down shots, or put themselves in compromising situations.
Apexcarver said: I do, however, appeal to anyone and everyone to take care of themselves in all situations and protect themselves. Why? because there are terrible people.

You guys mean well, which is why I'm taking the time to reply, but your energy here is misplaced. It's men, not women, who need to be advised about how to prevent rape. Men commit almost all rapes. Most rapes are commited by white men aged 21 and older. Talk with your sons about the meaning of consent. Discourage them from having double standards about women. Teach them that sex isn't something a person "deserves." Call out your buddies when they say some sexist E36 M3. Check in with the dudes in your life, and with yourself. Here's a good article about discussing these topics with a teenager.

Women already know they're at risk. They learn this early and often. They're already aware that they can restrict their behavior in an all-too-often vain attempt to avoid sexual assault. Sometimes they restrict their behavior without even realizing it. Sometimes the feeling of danger is so internalized that it shapes the path a woman's life takes overall. She turns down a job because the walk from the subway to the office is unsafe—or, more realistically, she never applies to that job in the first place because she knows not to search in that area. She never lives her dream to hike the Appalachian Trail—or, more realistically, she never even develops an interest in hiking it because the first time she considered it, she immediately dismissed the idea because of the risk. This is real E36 M3.

It should never be anyone's responsibility to avoid being raped. I think most of you get this, but some of you don't really get this. You think that it's just an unfortunate current reality that the world is dangerous, and in the meantime we should take precautions. That's easy for you to say when women account for 9 out of 10 rape victims. Frankly, my life would be vastly different if I never had to fear men. This is my only life, right now, and I shouldn't have any reason not to live it as fully and spontaneously as a man can. I have the same right as a man to get plastered at a frat party or to walk around at night. And as I said above, "taking precautions" takes many forms and can easily result in a half-lived life. So the least you can do is stop with the advice.

And be careful not to use this as an opportunity to congratulate yourselves for thinking rape is wrong (that's baseline morality) or for believing that this woman was, in fact, raped (because there were two male, unrelated witnesses who caught the rapist mid-thrust, you don't actually have to rely on the woman's testimony to believe her, which is what we really need more of). If all you're taking away from this is that you want to assassinate this kid's nuts, you're doing it wrong.

Please, use this energy to talk about rape with the men in your life.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
6/9/16 7:04 p.m.

In reply to Sarah Young:

I appreciate your candor.

Please don't assume the worst. I spend vast amounts of energy every day discussing this and many other problem areas (like racism, child abuse, violence, etc.) with men and boys, most of whom are some of the most at-risk populations (uneducated, poor, criminal record, etc.). I have put my neck on the line for decades opposing injustice, and encouraging the men I have influence over to make good choices.

In fact, I did it today with a group of rather narrow thinking construction workers, discussing this thread.

Your recommendations are absolutely correct. I have listened, and taken them to heart. But you are coming to incorrect conclusions about me and perhaps others.

joey48442
joey48442 PowerDork
6/9/16 7:22 p.m.

As I a guy, I hate hearing other guys say "yeah! That guy is a terrible rapey person! He should be shot! He's awful, and totally at fault!...but she should have done a tiny bit more to avoid it" I'm sorry, but it's completely, 100 percent the rapers fault. Would we say "yeah! It's completely those gang members fault that that toddler got shot in the cross fire! but if that toddler had been wearing his little tykes bullet proof onesie, he could have avoided this!" Of course not. And to me that's what it sounds like when people suggest it's even a little bit her responsibility to not get raped.

Joey

Mitchell
Mitchell UberDork
6/9/16 8:09 p.m.

Sarah, Marjorie, thank you for adding some perspective here. Aside from discussing the embarrassing sentence, I was hoping that this thread could bring to light some basic everyday things that guys such as myself enjoy, but are still unfathomable for half of the population due to safety concerns. I like to run solo at night. Allows me to clear my head, get some fresh air, and enjoy weather 20 degrees cooler than daylight hours. I can reliably count on nothing happening. Very different risk analysis for women.

A related issue is just how different men treat women when there's not another guy around. I know women who factor in how much they're potentially going to get hassled when deciding when/if doing everyday tasks, like getting groceries. Not just getting wasted.

Marjorie Suddard
Marjorie Suddard General Manager, Grassroots Motorsports & Classic Motorsports
6/9/16 8:48 p.m.

Thanks, Mitchell. Yeah, interesting discussion. Few things I noticed:

Some of the guys feel threatened or accused when they hear women say they routinely feel unsafe, or feel the need to play one-upmanship. That's weird. I am no more safe out there because you've seen some E36 M3, too.

Also, although there were a LOT of comments from guys here saying what they'd have done if they'd "been there," not one of them mentioned the victim. There's an unconscious, half-naked young woman spread-eagled on the cold dirt: Your first thought isn't for her? How about a jacket over her? Attend to her wounds? Try to let her know she's safe and someone is there? There seemed no actual discussion of the victim as a person, or of what this meant/means for her life, although the perpetrator got that courtesy.

This conversation invokes a weird dynamic involving power, privilege, freedom and domination. Don't be angry at the women for being frank observers of our world and the very real and unfair limitations it imposes, not to mention the gross inequalities between the sexes.

I've never doubted I was as good as a man, or stopped celebrating how I'm different from a man. I have taken a lot of E36 M3 for that, and will continue to I'm sure. Fortunately, I have a good sense of humor, not to mention a wonderful family and a great job. That makes me pretty resilient, if not always as thick-skinned as I'd like.

Peace, brothers. We'll figure it out eventually.

Margie

HunterBenz
HunterBenz Reader
6/9/16 10:47 p.m.

I think it is strange that this thread went to equality. From everything I have seen on this, the judge really f-ed up.

Going back to equality though, truth is, the world is not equal and equality is situational. Even if you are the rootenest-tootenest BAMF (be it male, female, any race, any age, any level of intelligence, on through all the hot button whatever categories people are into now days), there is always someone more of a BAMF than you are. Even if you are the most BAMF out there, you can be hit from behind with a pipe and never see it coming.

My point is, you can be robbed, beaten, raped, etc. no matter who you are. People need to be smart in their activities. Is it a young lady's fault when she drinks until she blacks out and gets raped? Hell no, just like it is not the fault of someone who leaves their door unlocked and someone ransacks their house and steals their stuff.

Does that mean someone should just tell their kids not to steal stuff? That way everyone can leave their doors unlocked, right? It doesn't work that way. There are bad people out there, bad thieves, bad rapey a-holes, murderers, robbers, etc. People need to be taught to act right. Just like people need to make their own decisions on the types of behaviors they deem acceptable for the risks of a situation. At times, I do E36 M3 that is down right paranoid to my wife, I live in a world of what-ifs and like to hope for the best and prepare for the worst when it comes to life and limb for my family.

I don't think those on here saying young women need to be taught the dangers of binge drinking are being misogynistic, they are talking about one part of a big picture that deals with real truths as it relates to risk factors and crime.

I will be teaching my kids (boy and girl) right from wrong. I will be showing them what is morally right and how choosing the high road is more important than a membership in a group of douchebags that doesn't have morals. Sometimes choosing the right side sucks at the time, but you get to feel good about it later. I will also be teaching them not to be a target to be victimized and if they deem their activity vrs risk acceptable, go for it. It doesn't mean if they end up being a victim it is their fault, it just means they were victimized. Nothing more, nothing less.

Truth is, if the rapey d-bag was raised better, this might not have happened. If the young lady wasn't that drunk, it might not have happened. If the BA Swedes would have seen it earlier, it might have been stopped before it happened. But if it wasn't that rapey d-bag, it could have been another. If she wasn't that drunk, someone else might have been. The Swedes could have been the next block over and never been there. The scary thing is this happens WAY more than we hear about, and WAY, WAY more than is ever reported.

I applaud this young lady's strength and resilience, and I hope she holds onto that throughout her processes of healing and the rest of her life. As for the a-hole rapist, i hope he gets his retrial and ends up with the sentence he deserves.

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director, Grassroots Motorsports & Classic Motorsports
6/10/16 9:04 a.m.

White men seem to have no problem at all with profiling if the target is muslims. But point out that they are statistically overwhelmingly the perpetrators of sexual assault and suddenly they get REAL defensive and deflective about being lumped into a group. Just an observation.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
6/10/16 9:05 a.m.
JG Pasterjak wrote: White men seem to have no problem at all with profiling if the target is muslims. But point out that they are statistically overwhelmingly the perpetrators of sexual assault and suddenly they get REAL defensive and deflective about being lumped into a group. Just an observation.

Quoted for posterity.

Huckleberry
Huckleberry MegaDork
6/10/16 9:50 a.m.

In reply to JG Pasterjak:

We also make the best serial killers. In fact, I'm genetically predisposed to excel at almost the entire spectrum of violent crime as well as a mastery of tactics leading to world domination.

The pointless rapey/murdery end of the line tend to be those without the discipline to work at a genocide effort or crime syndicate. Slackers if you will.

Robbie
Robbie GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
6/10/16 10:17 a.m.

For all the parents on the forum here, this is a link that I think really eloquently explains how pervasive a problem like 'rape culture' really is.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carina-kolodny/the-conversation-you-must-have-with-your-sons_b_3764489.html

The short version: As parents, you have probably spoken with you daughter about how to avoid being raped, but have you spoken with your son about not raping? Did you even think there was a problem with that?

The common answer by landslides is that we parents have had the talk with a daughter and not with a son. Are we perpetuating the idea that the responsibility to avoid rape falls only on the women? Yes, yes, we absolutely are.

Similar lines of logic go for almost all types of oppression present in our country or world. Even most non-active oppressors are still perpetuating the 'culture' of the oppression, while thinking they are not part of the problem. Do we talk to minority kids about how not to 'fit into the stereotype'? Sure, we do a lot. Do we talk to majority kids about how to avoid discrimination? Not nearly enough.

Joe Gearin
Joe Gearin Associate Publisher, Grassroots Motorsports & Classic Motorsports
6/10/16 10:25 a.m.

I don't agree with everything Joe Biden has to say. But sometimes he hits the nail on the head:

http://www.motherjones.com/media/2016/06/read-joe-bidens-open-letter-stanford-suvivor-sexual-assault

Marjorie Suddard
Marjorie Suddard General Manager
6/10/16 10:27 a.m.

God, thank you Robbie!

To the poster who wondered aloud why we were talking equality: It's about equality because this criminal's sentence, as well as many laws in this nation and elsewhere, make it clear that while it takes a village to control a woman's body, there is no corresponding interest in controlling a man's. Why do I say that? Prison sentences are supposed to be exemplary, not just punitive. That sentence sends a message. He'd've gotten more time by showing a shopkeeper a gun. Hard time, too, not County.

It's about equality because while you are all teaching your daughters "not to be victims," you do not understand that the baseline talent required here is "not to be female." Because you know who gets raped? Overwhelmingly, it's females. Babies, girls, grandmas, lesbians, sluts, virgins, drivers, walkers, runners, workers, vacationers.... Females.

So your "Don't be victims" discussion with your daughter has to cover that. Let me know what you figure out, and be sure you take note of the little death in her spirit when you tell her lifeskill number one is being less of who and what she is.

It's about equality because I guarantee discussing the same topic with your son will instruct him to be MORE male: Protect women. Be strong. Be the leader in dicey situations.

It is about equality because the rules are different for girls. Less freedom. More fear. An unequal share of the blame and consequences should a criminal commit a crime against them. Why? Why is THAT the conversation instead of how we must change the way we define the rules for boys?? You have the penises. Freaking manage that E36 M3.

Also, stop padding your fantasies of "reality" with rape statistics as you know them. We understand the score, trust me, so an unholy number of attacks are not reported. We do, indeed, shut up and accept it. We walk in fear. We have nightmares you do not. We suffer consequences not of our making.

And if you need to make sure any talk of equality includes talking about a responsibility falling equally on men's and women's shoulders, cool. We welcome it. Not the pepper-spray bullE36 M3 most have been spouting, though. You guys have beat that to death. What you have barely discussed is how we teach BOYS about rape.

Now take it one step further: If you ever want to have the REAL discussion, it's about equality because rape is not about sex. It's about power. This is accepted canon, so it shouldn't blow your mind. Why are men doing this? What is it about women asking for an equal place at life's table that prompts it? How are you discussing THIS with your sons and daughters?

Dudes, you have the power: Use it for real and give some of it to your daughters.

You asked.

Margie

Robbie
Robbie GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
6/10/16 10:49 a.m.

In reply to Marjorie Suddard:

Don't thank me, thank my wife. She had to point it out to me before I saw it (not just the article, the whole freaking culture of oppression), so I'm trying to return the favor and point it out to a few more. For someone who considers himself observant and pretty smart, its amazing how hard some of this stuff is for me to see.

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
6/10/16 11:00 a.m.
Marjorie Suddard wrote: proper-spray bullE36 M3

Thanks for the levity..

Aside from that I agree with what you say and appreciate your posts.

Marjorie Suddard
Marjorie Suddard General Manager
6/10/16 11:05 a.m.

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine:

Oops, fixed it. Though the typo worked pretty well, too. Damn tiny phone screen.

And Robbie brings up another interesting point: Have you read this with your wives and daughters? It's too valuable a discussion to let pass with just the "shiny happy person rapes girl, gets too little time because of affluenza" obvious conclusion. It's not about why affluenza got him off lightly--it's about why it made him think that rape was ok, and why so many people continue to miss that.

Margie

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
6/10/16 11:15 a.m.
Sarah Young wrote: ...Most rapes are commited by white men aged 21 and older...
JG Pasterjak wrote: White men seem to have no problem at all with profiling if the target is muslims. But point out that they are statistically overwhelmingly the perpetrators of sexual assault and suddenly they get REAL defensive and deflective about being lumped into a group. Just an observation.

I don't want to poop on your racism parade here, but this thread seems to be about education and what you have hear is (unassumingly inadvertent) miss use of statistics.

What is quoted is a raw statistic of numbers. Any statistic like that HAS to be looked in in perspective to the relative population distributions to have any real value. If you look at the referenced link, yes, it states that 57% of rapes are perpetrated by white people. If you look at the ethnic breakdown of the US (depending on year, and what year the 57% was from) the percentage of white people in the US is around 65%, which of course means, statistically, white people are below average in raping, making that statement in its context, unnecessarily inflammatory.

E.g. if you are looking at statistics as someway to inform you decision as to what ethnic groups to hang around with to avoid getting raped (?!), hanging around with white people is statistically safer then average.

As you may have ascertained, I am pretty sure this aspect should never have been brought up. There are certainly cultures that are far more permissive of rape (even of children), and if you want to warn people of those, that is reasonable, but bringing racial aspects into this conversations (about the US) seems a wee bit inappropriate.

BTW - As far as I am aware white men are not genetically predisposed to profile Muslims as you statement implies. Racism is racism.

Sorry, but I really HATE miss-information and it seems like something you would really want to avoid in a thread like this.

Addendum - It looks like those statistics where mostly collected in the 90's - 2000's. Obviously some variability, but at that time the US was more around 70-80% white.

Duke
Duke MegaDork
6/10/16 11:37 a.m.
Marjorie Suddard wrote: Thanks, Mitchell. Yeah, interesting discussion. Few things I noticed: Also, although there were a LOT of comments from guys here saying what they'd have done if they'd "been there," not one of them mentioned the victim. There's an unconscious, half-naked young woman spread-eagled on the cold dirt: Your first thought isn't for her? How about a jacket over her? Attend to her wounds? Try to let her know she's safe and someone is there? There seemed no actual discussion of the victim as a person, or of what this meant/means for her life, although the perpetrator got that courtesy. Margie

I respectfully submit you shouldn't read too much into that oversight. I think in this scenario that 99% of the what-iffing about the man / rapist is centered around ending the rape immediately and ensuring the guy remains a non-threat in the most direct way possible. It's not because of a fundamental lack of consideration for the woman / target. As much as anything can, I think it goes without saying that anybody posting here would do their best to care for the victim as soon as the immediate threat was cancelled.

iceracer
iceracer PowerDork
6/10/16 11:38 a.m.

I see now that jurors are refusing to serve under that judge and telling him why.

KatieSuddard
KatieSuddard Intern
6/10/16 12:02 p.m.

In reply to aircooled:

It doesn't matter if populations would work out to have white people committing less than half of the sexual assaults, because there aren't only two groups. It's not that one has to be over half to be the winner, it's that when one has the overwhelming majority it is the clear winner. Or in this case, rapist.

KyAllroad
KyAllroad UltraDork
6/10/16 12:17 p.m.

In reply to KatieSuddard:

That's the problem with statistics. According to statistics more deaths occur due to the powerhouse .22, not because it's a particularly dangerous caliber but rather the vast majority of firearms are .22s.

So, while I get what you're saying, using statistics to make any point is iffy as a halfway skilled statistician can twist those numbers to say anything.

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
6/10/16 12:30 p.m.
KatieSuddard wrote: In reply to aircooled: It doesn't matter if populations would work out to have white people committing less than half of the sexual assaults, because there aren't only two groups. It's not that one has to be over half to be the winner, it's that when one has the overwhelming majority it is the clear winner. Or in this case, rapist.

I really have no idea what you point is and no idea why this was brought up to begin with.

Well... to use another hot topic as an example. I saw a TV program that wanted to show how silly the idea that the police are "shooting black people" by presented the fact that more white people are shot by the police then black people.... uhm... yeah... black people only make up 12% of the US population! The police could shoot 5 times as many black people (controlling for population %, which is the useful statistic) as white people and the original statement would still be true!!

Marjorie Suddard
Marjorie Suddard General Manager
6/10/16 12:42 p.m.

I'm gonna go ahead and call time of death on this one, and get on with my life. See you guys later.

revrico
revrico GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
6/10/16 12:43 p.m.
Marjorie Suddard wrote: Now take it one step further: If you ever want to have the REAL discussion, it's about equality because rape is not about sex. It's about power. This is accepted canon, so it shouldn't blow your mind. Why are men doing this? What is it about women asking for an equal place at life's table that prompts it? How are you discussing THIS with your sons and daughters? Dudes, you have the power: Use it for real and give some of it to your daughters. You asked. Margie

I wanted to be done with this thread, because this is a topic that brings out rage and anger with me. Getting past the rage and anger, and looking at it through the equality glasses, it is an act of power brought on by fear. Yes, there will be more generalizations brought on, but you can't talk about something so ...widespread? without making some generalizations.

It seems to be fear of losing power, fear of someone perceived as inferior being treated equally that helps leads to these problems. Whether it's to show off how big and bad someone is to their friends, or "I'll show her/him I'm more powerful/important/whatever" it's an act of fear of not being good enough or fear of a power shift. This fear takes many forms, some are rape, some are racism, homophobia, etc.

I will say women are the more powerful portion of the population, especially after witnessing my daughters birth. A kidney stone leaves me crying on the floor, I can't imagine passing a watermelon through a garden hose if you'll excuse the analogy. That ALONE shows how much more ungodly physical power women have than us. And that is very scary to power hungry wannabe big badass guys, particularly those groomed into that role from children, even if they don't realize it(it being the power and strength to bring a life into the world). There is also it being an act of desperation, but I don't buy into that at all, hookers are cheap enough if you're that damn desperate, although self control isn't really taught in this age of immediate gratification.

This whole subject was never really brought up to me as a child, because it's berkeleying wrong, and that (should be) common sense. Having a young daughter at home, and having been there to console so many people through my life that have gone through E36 M3 like this, I am beginning to see it in a different light. I defend my friends with violence because that's the only way I know how(a fault in ME, that I know about, admit, and accept), I can't imagine if something ever happened to my daughter what I would do. I like to think she is young enough I don't need to worry about it now, but when she goes off to daycare or preschool, it will be in the back of my mind because (to me) it's even more dangerous when they're children because they don't know to say no, and don't know what to do about it, but I sure as hell don't know how to bring up bad touch to a child. God help whatever idiot boyfriend tries something when she grows up though.

I never wanted kids period. I especially didn't want a daughter because I know my kinks and writing it out I sound like a hypocrite for this thought, even as consenting adults, I probably deserve a beating for things that have happened in the bedroom. But that's kind of part of it, it's always consensual when things happen, no matter how weird they might be. And when someone says stop, it stops. But I also didn't want a daughter because of popular culture. When the big female icons have become icons because they run around mostly naked, singing songs about shaking their asses, tricking guys into giving them all their money, or how being a skin covered skeleton is somehow sexy, well, that won't make raising her to love and value herself, and look out for herself any easier. Particularly, looking at her mother, her half sister, and myself, it's all but set in stone that she will be a fat kid growing up, and while that sucked being the fat boy in school, it was a million times harder for the overweight girls trying to fit in with the natural skeletons.

I'm not even trying to kiss your ass Margie, but I'd really rather my daughter look up to women like you or Lesley, who followed your passions and did right by yourselves than any flavor of the week pop starlet. I don't know you personally, and I don't know how you got here, I can't imagine it having been easy, but you got here, and that's what matters. And I won't lie at all, I do wonder how bad things will be for her if I do push her towards a racing career of some sort, because it's still a pretty male dominated sport and there are still some pretty backwards thinking individuals in it. Although that does hold true across most fields. Sure there's Danica, but she seems more a token female than a female Jeff Gordon or Niki Lauda. Could that be my judging her based on looks more than ability? A bit, yes, but I've seen her star in more commercials than I've seen her win races.

RX Reven'
RX Reven' GRM+ Memberand Dork
6/10/16 12:48 p.m.

Hi Katie,

I haven’t personally verified any of the numbers presented here so I’m just speaking in general terms (I teach advanced engineering statistics BTW).

Aircooled was normalizing the rape statistics to get a per capita value which is the appropriate thing to do.

Let me share an example from Leonard Mlodinow’s (Ph.D. Statistician at Cal. Tech.) book “The Drunkards Walk”.

Leonard once attempted to give blood but the screening process detected the presence of the enzyme associated with HIV. He met with a doctor who told him that the incidence of false positives and false negatives was exceptionally low.

However, Leonard knew that he wasn’t in a high risk population (gay, IV drug user, etc.) so he insisted on being tested again and, not surprisingly, the results came back negative. So, the incidence of committing Type I and Type II error (concluding you have HIV when you don’t and concluding you don’t have HIV when you do) isn’t a constant but rather is a function of your likelihood of having it.

In the same way, the probability of being raped by someone of a certain race isn’t derivative of the absolute number of rapes that race has committed but rather it’s the percent, per capita, that that race has committed.

Conduct a thought experiment with me please.

What if you were to encounter a guy from Shagdonia which is an odd little country that actually requires its citizens to rape at least once per day. There are only a few Shagdonians in the US so they only get a tiny little sliver on the bar chart you posted.

Wouldn’t you be extremely nervous passing a Shagdonian in a dark ally…wouldn’t you be much better off walking the other way past a white guy even though he has a huge bar on your chart?

bearmtnmartin
bearmtnmartin GRM+ Memberand Dork
6/10/16 12:48 p.m.

I don't know if the punishment fit the crime. I did not hear all the evidence in court and I was not at the scene of the crime. So what I do know is, the judge took the available evidence and testimony into account and made a decision. It seems as if he would be as repelled as anyone and would not be on the side of a rapist unless someone paid him off.

A lot of people do not like the decision he made and have done their best to stiffen the penalty. I am Canadian and I have seen three different Facebook postings with photos float past my screen, each with endless added condemnation and vitriol. So the public has added immeasurably to that kids sentence, rightly or wrongly. And I suspect a lot of the anger came from his dad's comment about a few minutes of action. Sounds like the apple does not fall far from the tree.

In addition to time in jail, he is on a national sex offender registry. That doesn't wear off as far as I know. With that and the social media shaming, he is now a marked man for the rest of his life. Reporting to authorities when he moves or changes jobs, not allowed to be around kids, and whatever else is involved with that. I would say at this point he has been heavily punished.

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