Did you get educated on savings vs debt?

Just something else to look at. I wondered what the average income is in the town I grew up in. Mt. Orab, Ohio. It's a kinda poor place, I guess. But not like crazy poor. People work and live in houses. You know. Just small town America.

Average per-capita income is $16,483. That's AVERAGE. But what about the really poor places? Bunch at the bottom of the list I've never heard of. But Felicity is down there. Not a great town. We called it Flee City when I was a kid. Average income is $10,490.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_locations_by_per_capita_income

But even those folks are doing well compared to some in America. I looked up Colorado and there are several comuities where the average income is well under $10k.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_locations_by_per_capita_income

You can look all over the mid-west and see real life averages under $10k. It's pretty tough out there in a lot of places. And even a full time, minimum wage job with health care is a tough, tough thing to come by in some of those places. And, again, if you have kids, and you're a single parent, don't know how you'd take one if you could find it.

If you google "living on minimum wage" and click the video tab you can see several examples of people showing what it's really like. It's not pretty. Those folks aren't saving for retirement. They're saving for food. And as you can see, they're lucky to have minimum wage.

I have a meeting coming up, so I will stop this string of posts, but this was really interesting too. According to this, the poverty level is $22,350 - not for an individual, but for a family of FOUR. That's $5,587 per person for a year. It also says that about 15% are living below that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States

I'm pretty sure they don't have a 401k and if they did, I'm absolutely sure they couldn't contribute to it. 15% of Americans live on less than $6,000 a year? Wow. I wouldn't have thought that.

fast_eddie_72 wrote: If mom is a .... etc,

It still isn't getting thru. I'm not trying to minimalise people's circumstances. I'm trying to say that this is not the rule; its the exception.

Politicians either want you to believe, or want to make it true, that these people are the rule and everyone else is the exception. They want this to happen so they can consolidate government powers by promising to take care of them.

The truth is if they cared about these happenstances, they would treat the exceptions as exceptional, and educate everyone else.

You can't take a person who was raised by responsable adults and expect their level of sensability from people who basically raised themselves. It just isn't going to happen.

I agree, and thats the other point I was trying to make. Much of this influence is cultural. And nearly nothing the sycophants I'm complaining about are doing actually addressing this problem; only the symptom, and only so much as its politically expediant.

Why aren't we doing more to GIVE this education, these plans, these habits, and sensabilities more actively to those who weren't raised with it? Why don't these people know to seek this out for themselves? Why aren't we trying to fix these two issues?

My personal sense of compassion is offended by the people who claim to others that they are more compassionate than "X", yet haven't taken any steps to help the problem in any capacity in their own life (eg. politicians).

also, most poverty calculations don't take into account things that do make a difference, and also directly conflict others.

In that wikipedia article, it also says (citing the census of 2007) that the percentage of the population living alone that is in 'poverty' is 19%. But, like unemployement, they've come up with more than a handful of 'calculation methods,' which allow for number futzing. What about unemployed college students? Active Military? Incarcerated? Some count households but not individuals, some only count IRS tax filings. Not every measure accounts for these examples in the poverty figures, and all should be viewed with skepticism.

madmallard wrote: It still isn't getting thru.

Sooo, you can be kinda condescending.

Have a great evening. Shooting all night again tonight.

fast_eddie_72 wrote: Sooo, you can be kinda condescending.

oops. not trying to be, so keep calling me on it.

I mean the failure is mine for not giving the explanation in a way that it does get thru.

Most info of the financial nature anymore comes from advertisements. Usually by folks aiming to take money from you to aid their financial plan.

Once you get past the hype and look at these ads closely and logically you will laugh...then get really ticked off.

My favorite now is "Buy GOLD!!"
Premise is that owning gold will be profitable.....we own a lot of gold so we are paying for a lot of advertising to sell you our gold!!

Here is a fun question....

What would your monthly bills be if you used nothing of the service provided?

Read you bills and figure it out your costs if you used NO water, electricity, gas, phone, sewer, trash pickup, internet, credit cards...whatever!! I left out insurance and taxes on purpose...they get their own rant!!

egnorant wrote: Read you bills and figure it out your costs if you used NO water, electricity, gas, phone, sewer, trash pickup, internet, credit cards...whatever!! I left out insurance and taxes on purpose...they get their own rant!!

Soooo... installing and maintaining all those miles of wire and pipe from the plants to my house doesn't cost the utility company anything at all? I never knew that! Those bastards!

Duke wrote: Soooo... installing and maintaining all those miles of wire and pipe from the plants to my house doesn't cost the utility company anything at all? I never knew that! Those bastards!

Good to see that you are aware of these costs. Yeah, shipping and handling costs are perfectly valid expenses. Or even paying a membership fee that helps offset some costs. Just a nudge to actually look at your bills.

madmallard wrote: It still isn't getting thru. I'm not trying to minimalise people's circumstances. I'm trying to say that this is not the rule; its the exception.

Well, you say that. But you offer nothing to back it up. You can pick at the poverty calculations, but really, what if they're off a tic one way or the other. Loads of people live on very, very little, as I showed with the per capita income data. You're posting your opinion, which is fine. But the facts don't seem to bear out that opinion. Or if there are facts that do, you've not supplied them.

I've lived in some sketchy cities. I can tell you first hand that in many, many places, for millions and millions of American citizens, that IS the rule. Not only that, the future looks pretty hopeless. And we just sent another gang of folks to Washington intent on cutting what little is available to try to help those people. And the hell of it is, it doesn't add up to squat in the budget.

We have built a society that simply does not work for a huge number of people. You cite the incarcerated. Here's a question- why does the "land of the free" incarcerate more of it's own citizens than any other country? What does that say about the quality of life for a huge number of people. What is the rule and what is the exception for them and their children?

From playing Elite. The random pirate attacks teach you the value of saving money, and making sure your house is outfitted with a good forcefield and some laser cannons

madmallard wrote: So i'd say the consensus here so far is LARGELY a parental figure gave counsil on the ways of financial means. So my NEXT question to you all is, who do you think educates most of the people that have to take government aid as a primary means of their lifestyle?

Why do you think the answer would be any different from the first question?

I am going to bed honest.... I grew up in a well to do family one in which wat was wanted was purchased always. Upon going out on my own I too had obtained a very good job always since the time i was 17 being in a 60 to 100k bracket. Now i am 28 and due to changes in my life i work a 7.75 and hour job and have finally come to realize how lucky i was. Ive never been a huge one for saving. mainly because i thought i would always be making that kind of money. I lost my career tho. run out of it. and i have taken a new apreciation for money and how hard finances can be. The so is an accountant and has managed things enough that we are still keeping our heads above water but we have had to make alot of lifestyle changes (ie no going out 5 or 6 times a week) no going shopping every time we do have an event to attend for a new dress ect.

Interesting discussion. I have a few viewpoints from both sides. First, I didn't grow up well to do, but we weren't poverty ridden either. I would imagine we were below the poverty line though at various points. Now I'm much better off with a decent job, college degree, grandkids, etc.

My take is that there really is two sides to the poor in this country, those that are poor on purpose (of which there are many, including my brother-in-law), and those that circumstances have led them to it. I won't get into the depths of these, but lets say my beef is how we deal with them as a society. I think we use them for political gain to get what we want without ever addressing the problems.

So lets get rid of the ones that are in the poor catagory on purpose, and throw out the college students, etc., that may drag down the stats. With those gone, what are we doing? We're giving them just enough money to survive and telling them to vote for us as we're the ones that are being so generous. We're creating a constant source of power.

The problem as I've experienced is two fold. First, the education systems these people were a product of is totally inadequate. They are left with almost no education at all in many circumstances. The second: a total deteriation of the family. I think having a strong family infulence (traditional family or non-traditional) is so important to how a person ultimately views the world and participates in it. If there is a common link to many that live in poverty, I think it's the family unit or lack thereof. As a volunteer many years ago, this was pretty much 100% of those that needed help. These people lacked the most essential aspect of life, the hope that tomorrow will be better.

The people or families that were poverty ridden, or experiencing hardships due to job loss, etc. usually made it out of their problems in time, those that experienced the above rarely did. At least the ones I experienced.

Poverty in many respects is a state of mind as it is a lack of money. You have to have self respect, education, determination and hope. What we do is not to encourage any of these, just give them a little bit of money, pat them on the back and tell them to vote for us next election to keep your check. What we need to be doing is helping to train these people while giving them their check. Teaching them skills, giving them self respect and most of all, and get a real education system.