I have no idea but I came across this.
Keep in mind "Shimano" and "Disk Brakes" are pretty sweeping categories. Shimano parts are found on everything from $125 Wal-Mart bikes to $12,500 Pinarellos.
The biggest complaint about BD bikes is all the non-visible components are really 2nd or 3rd tier. Tires are low end, even if they are name brand they are usually the Sams Club 27 TPI version with the same name as the 120TPI version. Seats are heavy and flexy. Seat posts, cables, grips, stems, wheels, etc are all really low spec. They spend money on the visible bits of the groupsets so they can advertise "Carbon Frame and Ultegra for $1399" but go down through the specs.
Motobecane Century PRO Disc
Alloy steerer, odd on a carbon bike. Cheap cheap like a little bird
Crankset - FSA Omega - not Ultegra
Bottom Bracket - FSA not Ultegra
Front and Rear Mech - Ultegra - holy smokes! Only Ultegra bits on the bike,
Shifters - 105 - not Ultegra.
105 Chain and Cassette - Serviceable but not Ultegra
Generic Mountain Bike spec hubs (15mm thru axle not 12mm) - odd choice on a brand new road bike. Wheels are straight spokes not butted - generic chinesium stuff.
And the spec falls away from there. Paint sucks, etc etc.
A lot of that is completely greek to me, but I'll take your word for it.
The RadBikes at least uses Acera drive gear which is a few steps up from the bottom of Shimano's line. I certainly don't care about paint quality. Not even sure I care if it has paint.
I totally understand that there are reasons why a $15,000 bike is worth that kind of money... for a racer, hardcore enthusiast, or daily 100-mile rider. But think of this like one of the "what car" threads where the goal is to buy a cheap, decent car for a 16 year old who just got their license and is only going to use the car to drive 10 miles to work 3 days a week. We're not going to convince someone with a $5000 car budget to buy a brand new S-class for a green driver. We're buying a used Focus or a Hyundai. Then, if that new driver decides that they are a driving enthusiast and wants to upgrade later to a Miata or an MR2, great.
Or like if I (as a professional builder) recommended a circular saw for someone who wants to do one project. Easy. Harbor Freight for $39. For myself, I want the $500 Festool because I use it daily to make flawless cuts for high-end cabinetry and millwork, and it needs to work the same for every perfect cut for 5000 cuts. They need to make 4 cuts and they would be ugly anyway since they don't have the muscle memory to cut straight anyway. I'm like that new carpenter. You could give me the Festool and I wouldn't notice any difference from the HF saw.
I appreciate your input, but if you're just going to say "anything that is below my highly experienced standards is crap," it's not very helpful. Now, if you were to say "the RadBikes is fine, but [insert brand] uses better components for a couple more bucks," I could understand. That's what I'm looking for. I'm choosing between a Focus and a Hyundai, and you're just telling me why they're worse than a Ferrari.
93gsxturbo said:Keep in mind "Shimano" and "Disk Brakes" are pretty sweeping categories. Shimano parts are found on everything from $125 Wal-Mart bikes to $12,500 Pinarellos.
The biggest complaint about BD bikes is all the non-visible components are really 2nd or 3rd tier. Tires are low end, even if they are name brand they are usually the Sams Club 27 TPI version with the same name as the 120TPI version. Seats are heavy and flexy. Seat posts, cables, grips, stems, wheels, etc are all really low spec. They spend money on the visible bits of the groupsets so they can advertise "Carbon Frame and Ultegra for $1399" but go down through the specs.
Motobecane Century PRO Disc
Alloy steerer, odd on a carbon bike. Cheap cheap like a little bird
Crankset - FSA Omega - not Ultegra
Bottom Bracket - FSA not Ultegra
Front and Rear Mech - Ultegra - holy smokes! Only Ultegra bits on the bike,
Shifters - 105 - not Ultegra.
105 Chain and Cassette - Serviceable but not Ultegra
Generic Mountain Bike spec hubs (15mm thru axle not 12mm) - odd choice on a brand new road bike. Wheels are straight spokes not butted - generic chinesium stuff.
And the spec falls away from there. Paint sucks, etc etc.
I agree that the BD bikes are pretty poor for a lot of parts but tbh 105/FSA is more then good enough for most bikers.
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
That's kind of missing the mark. At least with your car reference. All the cars you listed have wheels that will last the life of the car and brakes that are easy to service along with easy to source maintenance parts. What I'm trying to say is that even a cheap car is made up of 99% of very durable components that you can find at your local dealership or parts store.
It gets more complicated with bicycles. I'll give you an example with my own experience. In 2008 I bought myself my first brand new nice bike. Steel framed Cyclocross bike for $1200 (end of the year sale the msrp was $1500)
Came with:
Avid BB7 cable disc brakes (mid tier at the time, but good and reliable)
Cane Creek headset (well known good quality)
Shimano 105 gears and shifters (again mid tier at the time, but quality and reliable)
Bontrager Bottom bracket (Total POS that started leaking and making noise with probably less than 1000-1500 miles. That's hilariously bad. Tons of other owners of this bike have had the same problem.)
The final thing that's a compromise with this bike is they decided to make the rear dropouts (the part of the frame that holds the rear wheel) spacing 135mm. Standard road bike spacing is 140mm. This means that if I want a different rear wheel I need one custom built $$$ or I significantly modify the frame $$$+time+paint etc. to make the spacing 140mm just so that in the future I could essentially buy a new rear wheel 'off the shelf' so to speak.
I didn't realize this problem until maybe a year ago when I wanted to put some wider tires on for more comfort. Can't. I already have the widest tire that's recommended for my narrow wheel. Crap. Ok let's shop for some wheels that will let me run wider tires. My rear dropout spacing is 135mm?!? WTF!!!!! Let's look at custom built wheels. Oh berkeley.. I don't like this bike THAT much!
Cheaper bikes are RIFE with these seemingly insignificant gotchas. You probably are better off building your own because with some guidance and perhaps some existing documented builds that are out there you can choose a good frameset and build from there.
I think 93gsxturbo was trying to get the above point across without writing a novel like I did. It's not snobbery as much as good reliable quality bicycle components and frames are expensive. In the bicycle world cheap bikes and components are cheap because they're built to be disposable.
Thanks for the clarification. Very well put.
I guess I'm going down the typical Libra Curtis rabbit hole and researching each component.
In reply to clutchsmoke :
FYI - old-school standard road bike spacing was 130mm, not 140mm. Mtn bikes were originally the same 130mm as well, but switched to 135mm very early. Current road bikes are now 135mm (quick release axle) or 142mm (thru-axle) similar to mtn bikes - although mtn bikes started switching to 148mm "Boost" spacing a few years ago. To add complication, there is also 157mm "Super-Boost" which is made more confusing as there is also a 157mm DH hub spacing - the difference being brake rotor mount.
All that said, it is very common to stuff a 135mm hub into an older 130mm frame. Especially since those rim brake frames don't have rear caliper mounts to worry about which are more picky about alignment.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:I appreciate your input, but if you're just going to say "anything that is below my highly experienced standards is crap," it's not very helpful. Now, if you were to say "the RadBikes is fine, but [insert brand] uses better components for a couple more bucks," I could understand. That's what I'm looking for. I'm choosing between a Focus and a Hyundai, and you're just telling me why they're worse than a Ferrari.
You are missing the mark a bit Curtis, which is surprising because usually you are spot on.
Its not that anything below top tier is crap - far from it. The trick, just like you mentioned regarding cars, is finding the sweet spot. There are many intangibles to spending a bit more and not scraping the bottom of the barrel on a bike build that pay off big dividends in the end. Just to name off a few:
Lastly, please consider bikes are not the same as a circular saw from the hammer store. Outside of blades and maybe brushes - no user serviceable parts inside so if it cuts - who cares about anything else. A decent bicycle is built with repair and upgrades as part of its design tenents.
are there any good "kits" I can put on my old Schwinn strand cruiser ballon tire bike ?
I know someone made "Wizzer" motor kits if you wanted a gasoline powered bike ,
At your price range, you've got a couple routes to success:
Brand new Rad Rover gives you a reputable name brand, big tires and enough battery and power to be fun and get you around. Even better might be a RadCity (you don't really need the fat tires), or even a RadMission. I'm happy riding mostly-single-speeded e-bikes at 300lbs, you should be ok on the radmission if price is an issue.
A step towards the sportier side gets you an Aventon Pace 500, which will do 28mph assisted instead of just 20mph, it's a bit more nimble than the Rad Rover.
Keep an eye on craigslist and FB marketplace and be ready to swoop in and grab an e-bike from one of the big OEMs that someone's letting go for cheap (ex: there's a VanMoof for sale locally at $900, and I've seen a specialized turbo go for $1600). If you get a torque sensing setup this way it'll feel super transparent and like you're just a hero every time you ride it.
A bit more of a project is waiting for a good mountain bike to show up on the used market and to assemble your own E-Bike. Get a used rockhopper or some other 26" wheeled mountain bike that's in good shape and being let go for cheap, swap out the rear wheel for one of the ebay 1000w hub motor wheels, assemble or buy a battery, and have fun. These end up feeling the most like a low-power electric motorcycle instead of a bike that's just always going downhill, but they can be fun too.
Interesting idea on the conversion....
In reply to 93gsxturbo :
Hear and understood. Thanks for the clarification.
the_machina said:Keep an eye on craigslist and FB marketplace and be ready to swoop in and grab an e-bike from one of the big OEMs that someone's letting go for cheap (ex: there's a VanMoof for sale locally at $900, and I've seen a specialized turbo go for $1600). If you get a torque sensing setup this way it'll feel super transparent and like you're just a hero every time you ride it.
A bit more of a project is waiting for a good mountain bike to show up on the used market and to assemble your own E-Bike. Get a used rockhopper or some other 26" wheeled mountain bike that's in good shape and being let go for cheap, swap out the rear wheel for one of the ebay 1000w hub motor wheels, assemble or buy a battery, and have fun. These end up feeling the most like a low-power electric motorcycle instead of a bike that's just always going downhill, but they can be fun too.
This first paragraph is one of my shortcomings. I have never even heard the name VanMoof. If you asked me about a VanMoof, I would assume it's one of the $600 Amazon junk bikes. VanMoof also sounds like a Dutch step van manufacturer from the 30s. Specialized, Cannondale, Trek, and Schwinn. That's about all I can rattle off my brain. I messaged someone about an e-bike on FB that had been on for exactly 14 minutes and it was already gone. Someone wired the money sight unseen. That has been typical of the bikes I've found. You see them freshly listed, and by the time you click "save" it's already pending or sold.
Anyone have a short list of used names I should be looking for?
The second paragraph is something I considered for a long time. My walmart special wasn't worthy of a $1000 conversion, and the Trek from 1992 that I had given to my nephew was even worse with old squeezy brakes and a healthy dose of rust. There are two reasons I stepped away from the conversion idea. 1) some of the swap-out wheels have some videos of the motors going bad or being faulty out of the box. 2) if I go straight for the more expensive Bafang wheel, until I get a decent sized battery, I'm looking at $1000-1200 just for the components, and I still would need to buy a good bike to put it on. It just seemed like for the same money or less I could have a complete, warrantied bike.
In reply to Ian F (Forum Supporter) :
Don't forget 126mm, too. As the number of sprockets in the back went up, the axle width went up so wheels wouldn't require crazy amounts of dish.
4-5mm on a steel frame is easily accomodated by gentle bending by hand.
Set up an Amazon Ebike for a neighbor, not impressed. It was about 700 bucks, tires were crap. Quality of components and weight were not good.
We are into recumbent trikes, probably not what you want. But I did a conversion on one, wheel drive system, from Electric Bike Outfitters. The quality and support provided made the 1200 price worth it. 2 years later, no issues and battery lasts a long time. Only use assist on hills and crossing streets so we are getting about 200 miles per charge.
I would say get a decent quality stiff mountain bike frame and convert it. Go with a small battery, unless you go on long trips it will last. If necessary carry a second battery then.
I bought a $650 Nakto ebike last week and have put some miles on it. It's heavy, mediocre quality, has primitive electronics and pedal assist, handles poorly compared to a real bike, and rides like an unloaded truck with a too stiff suspension. I love it.
It was cheap but it's still functional and I'll be using it for trips around the neighborhood instead of a car. I was thinking about a Propella, but they seem to be backordered until September. I might come to regret not getting something better, but for now this is a great way to get on the road.
Saw this thread rebooted and wanted to share my recent find. It's not grassroots but is somewhat auto related. https://www.greyp.com/ Pronouced "grape" e-bikes. The founder is Mate Rimac of Rimac Automobili fame. I met and had lunch with the US distributor for these in Abilene, TX. The price point on these bikes is beyond my reach but she told me some remarkable facts about some of the models.
The one that stood out most to me was the "connectivity" aspect of the bikes. You can choose a calorie number you'd like to burn on a ride. The bike then plans a route that accounts for distance, time, topography, your speed that will loop you back to your starting point with that number of calories burned. You want to burn 300 calories but an easier ride? Long, slow and flat. Want to burn 600 calories fast? Short, steep and uptempo. The bike adjusts mid-ride. Going too slow to meet your goal? It alerts you and you can bail on the ride or modify the route. Stuff a nice stationary bike replicates but out in real life. GPS and topo data are your resistance.
High priced but I'm anxious to see some of this tech trickle down.
I'm considering a Bafang conversion for my old mountain bike. Bafang is usually rated at or near the top of internet and YT reviews, MMV.
I'd go 48V 1000W crank drive. Pedal and walk assist. Buy the entire kit vs piecing one together.
Think I'm gonna do this.
Update on my etrike(s). One is now 3 years old, still no issues. Battery charge lasts forever, but the wife only uses it on steep hills or the way home if tired. I just finished converting another recumbent trike with the ebike.com kit. Same price but a 500W motor instead of 350W. Amazing how much that little jump does. In dirt it breaks the rear wheel loose, doing a u turn if I hit the throttle too hard it will go up on 2 wheels. The kits are pretty good and not tough to install but plan on needing an extension or 2 if the throttle or display goes somewhere different. And plan on using a lot of zip ties, first pass on wire routing is seldom the final one. I may do the upgrade on my old bike, just for fun. Rarely use it but wondering what it would be like with 750W of power.
Update to the Zombie thread.
I finally pulled the trigger. I got the newer Rad Power Bikes Rover 5. They did some upgrades. Still the Acera deraileur, but Tektro Aries brakes are now on them. They also upgraded to puncture-resistant Kenda Juggernaut tires from the no-names they had before.
There is nothing overly catchy about the specs and materials, but it is three light years ahead of anything I've ever owned. All of my bikes have been something that we found free or cheap. I did have one Schwinn 10-speed that we bought new at the bike shop, and I won a raffle in college and had a Trek mountain bike worth $340... for two weeks before it got stolen.
I have been impressed so far. Welds look super sexy. The attention to detail on the assembly manual is not something that I necessarily needed, but it sure was nice. A 10-year-old could assemble this bike with the directions they give you. Double bonus points for giving clear advice on things like setting seat height, handlebar angles, front fork damping adjustments, future adjustments to brakes, deraileurs, maintenance, and part numbers and sources for replacement parts. Assembly took about an hour... at least 20 minutes of which was just getting the 3.4 million zipties off of the protective foam on every single part of the bike. Every critical assembly point also had a zip tie holding a yellow warning tag telling you a critical aspect of assembling that piece. Again, for me, not really needed. You can tell me to thread this on and torque to 25 lb-ft, but for others who maybe don't know, it's a nice touch.
Overkill bonus points for supplying hardware with nylock nuts as well as blue threadlock compound on the bolts AND split washers. Demerit points for the threadlock stuff being kinda caked on causing it to be difficult to get some of them threaded without scrubbing some off.
It has been cold and rainy here, but I took it around the block last night. The 12 magnet pedal assist resolution will mean forethought on gear changes, but not unlike a Getrag behind a 4-banger. Twist grip throttle works like a charm. Bonus points for including headlight, taillight, and brake light, bummer that the headlight is a super narrow-focused beam. I might take a look and see if I can fuzz it up just a bit to give a little more diffused cone.
More updates as I ride it more. So far, very happy with the purchasing and assembly part of things.
Great choice. Welcome to the addiction!
fasted58 said:I'm considering a Bafang conversion for my old mountain bike. Bafang is usually rated at or near the top of internet and YT reviews, MMV.
I'd go 48V 1000W crank drive. Pedal and walk assist. Buy the entire kit vs piecing one together.
Think I'm gonna do this.
Let us know if you move forward with this. Very seriously weighing the pros/cons myself.
Man! There's a guy who zips around our neighborhood on his e-bike, and I've noticed that the thing accelerates quite hard while barely pedaling. Caught up with him yesterday. It's about a $5K bike. "Domestically produced" (Probably the frame anyway). Fat tires, full suspension and 3500 watts! I don't mountain bike anymore, but if I did, I think that it would be very annoying to share a singletrack with a bike like that. Not to mention the additional potential for erosion. At what point do these things become motorcycles and get sent to ORV areas? The one e-bike that I've ridden gets a nice extra surge from 500 watts. 7 times that? Damn.
Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:At what point do these things become motorcycles and get sent to ORV areas? The one e-bike that I've ridden gets a nice extra surge from 500 watts. 7 times that? Damn.
Never, I hope. Over regulating ebikes is the greatest threat to them, and I'm very hopeful that they continue to grow and become more mainstream. I was often heard shouting "cars are OVER!" after I got my cargo ebike, but it's slow as hell. I now regularly see people commuting on ebikes in my very rural area whereas before I never saw anyone bike commuting through here.
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