Efficient home thread

alfadriver wrote: Watching house hunters, we see people getting a 3500ft^2 "starter" homes. And can't really fathom what they plan to do with the extra house they are buying. Do people plan on doing a lot more than making woope and sleeping in their bedrooms? Why do you need a 300ft^2 bedroom? With a sitting area that you never will use?

I bought a 3300 sq ft house as my first house. It was a foreclosure, and wasn't any more expensive than the 1500 sq ft houses we were looking at... The wife and I both have "offices," and the two dogs each have their own bedroom. It's a little excessive. The worst part is trying to keep it clean, it seems in the time it takes you to finish, where you started is dirty again! I do enjoy the huge master bedroom and kitchen, though. Also the walk-in closet is the size of my first (double) dorm room!

On the topic of efficiency, that's a lot of empty space to heat and cool. Fortunately, the house is pretty well built..2x6 framing. Maybe once I get done with all the foreclosure-related projects, I'll concentrate on sealing air-gaps, blowing in more insulation, etc.

One of the greenest things you can do is buy a used house... granted, not necessarily the most efficient, but greener than having a new one built.

I just bought a 1937 house and have been improving it. One of my big problems right now is being careful where I spend money. Spending $8000 on new windows will probably mostly return to my pocket if I sell. Spending $10,000 on radiant floor heating with solar thermal power won't mean squat in Pittsburgh.

There are some cheap things you can do that won't solve the energy crisis, but they'll help.

1) stuff some insulation around all the outlets and switch boxes on outside walls.
2) use spray foam in all the nooks and crannies of the foundation/basement and around window frames.
3) update all appliances that are older than 7 years
4) on-demand water heaters often save a ton of energy depending on your energy source. If you use electricity from a coal-burning power plant, not so great. If you use natural gas or electricity from a cleaner source, super.
5) buy some cheap styrofoam pipe insulation and put it around the hot water pipes.
6) if you have a radiant heat source (like a wood stove) install a tempering tank near it in line with the supply for the hot water heater. Scavenging heat will reduce the load on the heater.

Stuff that works everywhere:

You can save a metric E36 M3 ton of energy by telling your wife and kids to hang dry the berkeleying towels and stop sending them to the wash every single berkeleying time you use one. Your ass was clean when you dried it - so the berkeleying towel still is too.

Remind them that light switches have two states, brushing your teeth with hot water can result in daddy pulling them with pliers and for the love of all that is good and decent - stop flushing the toilet because you tossed a goddamn snotty tissue in there.

Invite the neighbor in for coffee instead of leaving the front door wide berkeleying open while you bullE36 M3 for 15 minutes about who said what to who about stuff in the middle of berkeleying winter.

Close the berkeleying garage door. Always. |f you think I'm pissed about how running the garage heat with the door open in winter is costly imagine how much I'll love replacing all the berkeleying tools when the neighbors lawn care / crack heads are done loading it all into their unmarked van because you were too berkeleying lazy to look in the mirror before you drove out of the driveway.

Godberkeleyingdammit - shut off the berkeleying TV, curling iron, and AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH - AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH - AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker:

Sounds like you've got personal experience.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH - AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH - AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

I’m very, very interested in this thread – grassroots home repair kind of took over my GRM world a few years ago. We’re ~6 years in on remodeling our 70s ranch into a nicer, more updated, and hopefully more efficient house. The big expense, that we haven’t got to yet, is windows. Our single-pane aluminum windows keep the rain out, but that’s about it. Replacing them with decent/modern windows (even if I DIY it, which I am fully capable of) will run into the thousands of dollars. I have our hall bath torn up right now, working on remodeling/shrinking it to have space for stairs/ access to the half-basement under the house to put a rec room, etc in. Otherwise we’ll all be tripping over each other in short order here. There are two adults and three boys under 7 in a house that is maybe 1800 sq ft. – we NEED that 500 sq feet of basement badly. People splitting hairs over whether 3000 square feet is enough kind of make me a little crazy.

Trees.

Shade during the summer, hold in surface heat during the winter, slow the wind down around the house creating less drafts.

Downside? Additional costs and time for proper tree maintenance. However, it has been shown time and again that a house with trees will sell for an extra $5000 over a house with no trees.

"But what about trees falling and killing me in my sleep?" No-one said you had to plant redwoods around you house. Small trees work as well if not better in heat retention, wind speed control, and PRETTY BIRDS.

curious, how many of us haven't insulated the garage door?

Most people don't heat the garage, and the living space is separated from the garage by an insulation envelope. (My garage door is insulated).

On tankless water heaters:

There is no such thing a ROI on these. They will NEVER pay for themselves. The installation cost is high, and by the time they are paid off, they will need to be replaced.

However, there are a few really simple low cost solutions that will accomplish the same thing for much much less.

First off, water heaters should be located in a conditioned space. The garage, the attic, and sometimes the basement are all poor locations (from an efficiency perspective).

Secondly, water heater blankets do a great job of increasing the R value at a reasonably low cost. Or, you could wrap them with fiberglass insulation.

Thirdly, how come nobody uses timers? I installed a timer device so that the water heater comes on at 5:30 AM, shuts off at 9:00 AM, turns back on at 5:00 PM, and back off at 10:00 PM. In between, the unit is well insulated enough to maintain a decent supply of warm water.

Regarding water wasted waiting for the water to get warm, there is a better solution than a tankless. Installing a recirculating line is usually easy, and the operating cost is minimal. Basically, the concept is a 3rd water line from the water heater to the points of use, creating a loop in the hot water. A small pump circulates the hot water continuously, and there is always hot water near the point of use.

RossD wrote: I want to switch over to a tankless water heater when my current one craps out.

On tankless water heaters:

The City of Red Deer (population, 80,000 and growing rapidly, in 15 years it grew by 30,000 people) has had a BOOMING real estate market. Constant new additions of subdivisions, many which I helped either A) Do all of the plumbing in many houses B) Did inspections and hooked up water services in. In fact, I basically hooked up every water service for three years, at almost 300 per month.

In around 2007, every home builder/plumbing outfit started installing tankless hot water systems. They are great and work fantastic! There is a catch though! They MUST be cleaned once a year at a cost of almost $300 It says right there in the owners manual. Of course, people being regular old people ignored this. Tons of failures recently after about 4 years of service due to internal scale buildup. Now all of the home builders have switched back to tanks, as they don't care and the customer is too stupid to care.

One of my favourite setups for heating homes is a boiler system. Not only does it heat your home when coupled with underfloor heating, but it provides your hot water at the tap. Very, very efficient system, in -30*C winters it cost <$150/month to heat a 1500sqft bungalow (with a 1500sqft basement) and a 24'x24' garage when natural gas prices were through the roof. That's crazy good in Alberta.

Most of my info pertains to new home building design, as my father owns a home building business and specializes in efficient homes. Retrofitting more efficient building methods to older homes is difficult.

Next up is using foam block to make the house out of. Insane r-values, easier in labour costs (my father can do a house himself with one helper, unlike the equivalent crew of men needed to do a basement the traditional way). A sturdier, more solid house (your walls are concrete/Styrofoam), it can't rot like wood, it's basically win-win-win.

A lot of you guys don't have basements, but for those that do or are building a house with one, there is industrial spray foam (for the oilfield) which can be sprayed and set underneath the concrete for better floor insulation, versus laying down crappy inneffective foam sheets that break when you step on them. This spray insulation can also be used in the joists/rafters to great effect! As an added bonus, it works quite well as a vapour barrier.

Windows are huge! Not enough can be said for getting well designed windows, coupled with them being installed and sealed correctly so they don't leak. The nice thing about this is that it is an upgrade that can be done to any house!

Another thing that boggles my mind are people who don't have programmable thermostats. Why not make sure the furnace is completely off from 9am until 4pm, and then ramp back up so when you get home the house is nice and cozy? Same with at night, have them temp drop down when you fall asleep, and ramp back up before you get out of bed. As SVreX said, same with the hot water tank.

Now, onto some more idealistic stuff that I care to talk about

It is now quite easy to go off grid in certain areas. We had initially planned for the parents new acreage to be off grid, with a solar electric setup that would take care of all of the electricity, a solar thermal setup that would provide more than enough hot water/house heating even in the dead of winter, and recovery systems for water. I was shocked and amazed at just how affordable this stuff was if you looked at living there for 5+ years. Some of this stuff can be retrofitted to old houses, and some of it can be used in the city.

93EXCivic wrote: Can someone explain how shipping container homes are affordable? Looking around it seems that a shipping container is pretty pricey for 320 ft^2 and then you have to add wiring, plumbing, insulation, etc. I think they look awesome but is it really economical?

I'm thinking the same thing.

SVreX wrote: Most people don't heat the garage, and the living space is separated from the garage by an insulation envelope. (My garage door is insulated).

not in any home I've lived in...or seen around here either. floorboards are usually exposed underneath meaning the insulation envlope is basically the carpet pad for houses over their garages ;p

for house-overs, that also means heating and cooling leak into the space pretty easily.

granted that usually means you should insulate the whole garage, of course, but I was just curious how few people would have bothered to start (even cheaply) with their door.

Windows are the single most cost efficient improvement to a new house.

They are also the single most cost INEFFICIENT improvement to an old house. They will never pay themselves off.

However, builders make a LOT of money on window replacement, so there will always be someone out there suggesting this as the most important home improvement.

madmallard wrote:

SVreX wrote: Most people don't heat the garage, and the living space is separated from the garage by an insulation envelope. (My garage door is insulated).

not in any home I've lived in...or seen around here either. floorboards are usually exposed underneath meaning the insulation envlope is basically the carpet pad for houses over their garages ;p for house-overs, that also means heating and cooling leak into the space pretty easily. granted that usually means you should insulate the whole garage, of course, but I was just curious how few people would have bothered to start (even cheaply) with their door.

That may be true in the houses you've lived in, but it is in complete violation of the building codes. No house built in the last 30 years in the US should be done that way.

SVreX wrote: That may be true in the houses you've lived in, but it is in complete violation of the building codes. No house built in the last 30 years in the US should be done that way.

that I can believe. most of suburbia around Marietta GA was built/founded in the 80s.

SVreX wrote: Thirdly, how come nobody uses timers? I installed a timer device so that the water heater comes on at 5:30 AM, shuts off at 9:00 AM, turns back on at 5:00 PM, and back off at 10:00 PM. In between, the unit is well insulated enough to maintain a decent supply of warm water.

Have you mapped the energy usage for the difference between heatng cold water to temperature vs just maintaining hot water all the time?

I honestly don't know the answer but my gut tells me that if you heat from room temperature 2x per day vs maintain in a conditioned space with good insulation you might actually be costing yourself a few shillings with an electric water heater. That also assumes you would lose all heat. I have an amp meter with a logging function that would make for a useful experiment were you not really far away.

I have a gas unit - recovery is a matter of 10 minutes from cold water so this is something I can actually do that I'm not currently. It would mean changing the pattern for doing laundry and showering though as we do wash at night, kids shower in the AM, I shower after working out in the evening and the wife is somewhere between jobs all day.

I am never heating cold water.

Water heaters have a very good ability to maintain temperature.

The only exception would be if someone forgot the timed cycle and started using hot water in the middle of the day when the unit is off. It would then re-fill with cold water.

A well insulated water heater in a conditioned space with no cold water input will not reach room temperature for a long time- perhaps a couple of days. It's a pretty good thermal mass.

madmallard wrote:

SVreX wrote: That may be true in the houses you've lived in, but it is in complete violation of the building codes. No house built in the last 30 years in the US should be done that way.

that I can believe. most of suburbia around Marietta GA was built/founded in the 80s.

I said 30 years, but I was being conservative.

I've been building since 1977, and insulating the house from the garage has been a requirement for as long as I remember. Doesn't mean it was always done...

I'd be pretty surprised if the majority of Marietta GA had uninsulated garage/ living space separation. It's a really young part of the country- houses just are not that old, and they've been reasonably well regulated. Now the Northeast or Mid-Atlantic, that's a little different.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Stuff that works everywhere: You can save a metric E36 M3 ton of energy by telling your wife and kids to hang dry the berkeleying towels and stop sending them to the wash every single berkeleying time you use one. Your ass was clean when you dried it - so the berkeleying towel still is too. Remind them that light switches have two states, brushing your teeth with hot water can result in daddy pulling them with pliers and for the love of all that is good and decent - stop flushing the toilet because you tossed a goddamn snotty tissue in there. Invite the neighbor in for coffee instead of leaving the front door wide berkeleying open while you bullE36 M3 for 15 minutes about who said what to who about stuff in the middle of berkeleying winter. Close the berkeleying garage door. Always. |f you think I'm pissed about how running the garage heat with the door open in winter is costly imagine how much I'll love replacing all the berkeleying tools when the neighbors lawn care / crack heads are done loading it all into their unmarked van because you were too berkeleying lazy to look in the mirror before you drove out of the driveway. Godberkeleyingdammit - shut off the berkeleying TV, curling iron, and AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH - AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH - AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

I see you know my family.

In reply to SVreX:

I'm fairly certain that a very large portion of East TN, and North GA, still to this day have no idea what a code is.

In the past two weeks I have worked on TWO houses without sill plates I mean seriously no sill?

Another one the builder set the sill on the brick facade instead of the foundation wall. After looking at a couple other houses he built in the area we realized he did all of them this way. I have no idea why.

These where built about ten years ago, in the city which alllegedly has building inspectors. You couldn't imagine what I've seen when you venture outside the city's.

I've worked all over the country. I've seen it all.

I am completely aware that there is a lot of non-compliant work out there.

Local municipalities inability to enforce the code doesn't change that it exists. Marietta GA is hardly the boonies. Not even close.

After having lived in Austin for a few years, I have actually learned to enjoy sweating. My house in PA might get a window A/C in the bedroom cause I can't sleep when I'm hot and swampy, but after 3 years of $250 A/C bills in Texas summers, sweat feels pretty good. Every time I'm sweating I think about how its free.

I need to look into the technology of some of these newer central A/C systems. Mom and Dad put one in that is amazing. In the dead of summer they keep it set at 76-78, but you would swear that its 71. Proper humidity management I guess, but their electric bills in the summer aren't really any higher than they were before when they were using a big 220v attic fan, and the house is SO much more comfy.

Big nod to Snorkelwacker.... switches have two positions. I think I might put those motion sensor light switches in some of my lesser-used rooms. We're both bad about leaving lights on.

We also used to use those plug-in air fresheners but we ditched those in favor of incense and scented oils in the air vents. They don't use electricity, they're natural-ish, and they actually last longer.

We switched from a desktop computer to a couple compact laptops and we only charge them when needed, and we turn them off when not in use. Desktops really take a pretty hefty amount of juice.

Oh, one other thing we're trying to attain... near-zero landfill status. We have set up a composting bin instead of using a garbage disposer in the sink, we are building a nice outdoor fireplace which can be used for burning paper as firestarters since not all paper composts well. A lot of the rest of our refuse is recyclable - plastics 1 thru 6, cardboard, newspaper, even glossy magazine paper, steel, aluminum, phone books, etc.

Remember a few weeks ago when I posted "what to do with construction waste?" I ended up getting rid of the old junky 2x4s to a college kid who wanted to build a loft bed in his dorm. The plaster and drywall rubble became fill for a spot I wanted to level out, and I only took a very small amount to the landfill. It always hurts my heart to go there... so much plastic, aluminum, steel, polystyrene foam blowing around, rotting food which could have been composted... and, just as i suspected... rivers of foul water just running down the mountain. Such a shame.

In reply to curtis73:

Tangent here- food wise, the bay area has a pretty interesting program, where they take ALL of the food waste from restaurants, compost it (as well as burn the resulting methane for power) and return it to local farmers. It's a very interesting system.

We are incredibly fortunate here in AA, as we are able to recycle basically eveything- so our output it roughtly 2:1 recycled to non-recycled. And much of the non-recycled is tissue and paper that can't be reused. I'm also using old construction'ish wood to make raised beds for micro farming. Ok, square food gardening.... Just trying that out this year, and am being a lot more careful in making my compost as well. It doesn't end up being a huge impact on food sources, but much better than nothing, and the taste last year was pretty awesome.

But I know I need to find a source for re-insulating my house. It's pretty bad right now.

madmallard wrote:

SVreX wrote: That may be true in the houses you've lived in, but it is in complete violation of the building codes. No house built in the last 30 years in the US should be done that way.

that I can believe. most of suburbia around Marietta GA was built/founded in the 80s.

My house in Marietta is like this. The master bedroom is directly over a 1 car garage and the only insulation separating the 2 is some cheap fiberglass roll in insulation.

SVreX wrote: First off, water heaters should be located in a conditioned space. The garage, the attic, and sometimes the basement are all poor locations (from an efficiency perspective).

How about outside? Haha. That's where they had to put our water heater when we switched to gas. The old electric unit was in the 3 foot high crawlspace. I wanted it put in the garage, but he said building code wouldn't likely allow, especially with all the flammables I have in my garage. It seems the vent exit was the issue.