SVreX said:KyAllroad (Jeremy) said:It has a very McCarthy feel to it at the moment.
Amen
Really? This is like a senator accusing people of being a communist? And trying to ruin their lives over that?
An accusation that seems to be part of a trend of harassment is just like being accused of being a communist and anti-American? Why? Because people are all of a sudden being fired?
That's interesting. Although, not shocking that some think that.
I've spent most of my life working in a male-dominated industry- construction. Never had the slightest issue. I dealt with buttheads, did my job, got it done.
Four months ago I changed careers. I now work in a female dominated environment. 240 employees, fewer than 20 men.
I get women hitting on every day. More than a dozen have made advances in just a few months. I'm just an average guy- I don't remember ever having women hit in me before. Don't get me wrong- I kinda enjoy it. But there is no question I would be exposed for sexual harrassment charges if I said or did the exact same things.
I now manage women for the first time in my life.
Honestly, I'm concerned. I've never been afraid to step up as a strong leader. Now I feel exposed and vulnerable, like I have to watch everything I say or risk losing my job.
I can easily see the slightest mis-step (say the wrong thing, etc) on my part leading to my termination. It's an uncomfortable situation.
I think I liked working with testosterone pumped azzhats better.
alfadriver said:SVreX said:KyAllroad (Jeremy) said:It has a very McCarthy feel to it at the moment.
Amen
Really? This is like a senator accusing people of being a communist? And trying to ruin their lives over that?
An accusation that seems to be part of a trend of harassment is just like being accused of being a communist and anti-American? Why? Because people are all of a sudden being fired?
That's interesting. Although, not shocking that some think that.
No, it doesn't feel like communist charges. The issue with McCarthy was not the Communist accusations. It was the targeted and wrongful accusations that ruined people's lives without them even actually being guilty, without trial, or proof.
It feels like a witch hunt. Just like McCarthyism.
I have never accepted wrongful harassment in the workplace. I've fought for women, minorities, whatever.
Now it feels like I have to tread on eggshells, and that I am a target because of what I look like. I'd just like to quit and retire.
Im just a small fish. I'm a little concerned that some of the great warriors of equality will feel the need to back down on their efforts in the current environment.
Not all powerful people abuse their power. Some use it for good.
I heard of 3 separate powerful people today terminated on only the accusation of a single accuser. That's not a standard I think is acceptable.
Harrassment in the workplace should NEVER be tolerated.
In reply to SVreX :
So you assume that the accusations are like a witch hunt.
Not that there is merit in the repeated allegations that appear to show a trend? And that trend is enough to fire someone?
ok.
In reply to alfadriver :
Nope. Didn't say I assumed anything.
I said "It FEELS like...". That's an expression of my feelings, not any opinion whatsoever about the facts or accusations in any specific case.
But you knew that...
SVreX said:
Now it feels like I have to tread on eggshells, and that I am a target because of what I look like. I'd just like to quit and retire.
So what you are saying is that you are now being treated how Women have been historically treated and that you do not like it? Perhaps something should be done about that.
In reply to Jumper K Balls :
I never liked it, and always fought it.
Its not progress to start treating the other half of the population badly using history as an excuse.
SVreX said:I have never accepted wrongful harassment in the workplace. I've fought for women, minorities, whatever.
Now it feels like I have to tread on eggshells, and that I am a target because of what I look like. I'd just like to quit and retire.
So you "feel" like you are being under the spotlight just because you are a man. What a crock of E36 M3.
If you REALLY never accepted ANY harassment (is there a rightful sexual harassment???), and you REALLY fought for rights, you should have nothing to worry about, as there should not be any basis to accuse you of anything.
But then you bring up the idea that men are being prosecuted... After centuries of women being harassed and men getting away with it, it's now men that are under the microscope as a group. Give me a break.
Every single person I have direct contact with at work is a woman. I am a direct superior to a group of women.
I don't feel the need to walk on eggshells. I just behave like a normal person, ie not a creep, and don't harass people above or below me. I also don't flirt or make sexually suggestive comments to women I manage, because that's a terrible way to be someone's boss. Moreover, it probably is sexual harassment, because there's a pretty good chance they don't enjoy it. If you "kinda enjoy it," then it's not sexual harassment on their end. If you're uncomfortable with it, and they don't respect you asking them to stop, then it rises to sexual harassment.
I also doubt we know the full story behind these powerful men who were canned today, it seems likely their superiors had suspected for a long time or had other information beyond one single story.
Like I said earlier, there are plenty of credible harassers in their jobs right now, still harassing women. If they aren't worried enough about getting fired to quit, then why should I, who is well-known to my colleagues as someone they don't have to worry about, worry about losing my job?
In reply to alfadriver :
I love how you like to turn stuff.
I'm not getting into this argument with you, Eric.
If you actually cared, it would be quite wonderful to hear you ask about some of the ways in which I worked for these things. I'd be happy to explain.
But you'd rather make inflammatory accusations. It's pretty obvious what your goal is. I'm not taking the bait today.
Also, we really are talking false equivalencies here. A few women coming on to you is not anything like what women have had to deal with from men in society from time immemorial.
I have no idea whether you're a champion of equality or a creep Paul. But if you're not a creep, you have nothing to worry about.
Erich said:Every single person I have direct contact with at work is a woman. I am a direct superior to a group of women.
I don't feel the need to walk on eggshells. I just behave like a normal person, ie not a creep, and don't harass people above or below me. I also don't flirt or make sexually suggestive comments to women I manage, because that's a terrible way to be someone's boss. Moreover, it probably is sexual harassment, because there's a pretty good chance they don't enjoy it. If you "kinda enjoy it," then it's not sexual harassment on their end. If you're uncomfortable with it, and they don't respect you asking them to stop, then it rises to sexual harassment.
I also doubt we know the full story behind these powerful men who were canned today, it seems likely their superiors had suspected for a long time or had other information beyond one single story.
Like I said earlier, there are plenty of credible harassers in their jobs right now, still harassing women. If they aren't worried enough about getting fired to quit, then why should I, who is well-known to my colleagues as someone they don't have to worry about, worry about losing my job?
I agree with your sentiment, except for the "kinda like it" part.
Their actions are clearly outside of the company harrassment policy. My silence is just my expression of my discomfort. Me admitting I "kinda like it" is just me being a little more honest than some people are willing to be.
I have verbally expressed on several occasions when something was inappropriate. Hasn't changed the circumstances.
I'll admit I haven't filed a grievance, but that is just because I am new to this corporate culture and determining an appropriate path. I have to figure out how to manage new people in a new environment
Don't read into it too far.
Erich said:Also, we really are talking false equivalencies here. A few women coming on to you is not anything like what women have had to deal with from men in society from time immemorial.
I have no idea whether you're a champion of equality or a creep Paul. But if you're not a creep, you have nothing to worry about.
You are absolutely right
The thing I have the hardest time personally with is - what are the appropriate consequences? Does the work of someone working to advance women's place in society somehow balance out their personal transgressions? What can we forgive, and what can we not?
Then a few pervs are showing up at Massage Envy doing some groping and squeezing the wrong parts.
Running a company like that must be tough. Every once in a while some perv comes out of the woodwork. I’ve struggled hiring the “right” salesperson much less a massage dude
Being married has its perks as I can grab, grope, and squeeze whatever I want as long as she doesn’t have a headache.
alfadriver said:SVreX said:I have never accepted wrongful harassment in the workplace. I've fought for women, minorities, whatever.
Now it feels like I have to tread on eggshells, and that I am a target because of what I look like. I'd just like to quit and retire.
So you "feel" like you are being under the spotlight just because you are a man. What a crock of E36 M3.
If you REALLY never accepted ANY harassment (is there a rightful sexual harassment???), and you REALLY fought for rights, you should have nothing to worry about, as there should not be any basis to accuse you of anything.
But then you bring up the idea that men are being prosecuted... After centuries of women being harassed and men getting away with it, it's now men that are under the microscope as a group. Give me a break.
Alfadrvr, when at that moment you should encounter a member of the opposite SEX.....be very careful , you could be next....thank VAWA
In reply to 759NRNG :
Please check your PM's.
From what was on the news and WWW today, ol Matt must have been a real hornball. And it’s only going to cost him $50 million dollars.
I've had two accusations leveled against me at the workplace. The first was complete fabrication, she made things up wholesale for who knows what reason as I was in no position of authority whatever. She just wanted to burn me. The second was during my divorce a woman asked why I looked so miserable, when I told her she asked what she could do to help. I told her that if she wanted to set me up with someone "like a third co-worker but not because I didn't want to date anyone at work". Nothing nasty, nothing untoward, just an emotionally vulnerable guy being honest. That was enough for HR to get involved and my job was threatened. Now my head is on a swivel and my mouth is zipped. I do not make any reference to anything personal at work at all. Nothing. "Nice day lovely weather we're having", that's me.
I'm not for a minute saying there aren't scumbags out there and they deserve a solid nut punch while being prosecuted for any crimes they commit. But we are rapidly approaching witch hunt levels of hysteria (Garrison Keillor for instance) and when the taint of "harasser" gets on you it can be absurdly hard to overcome.
This is nothing, yall should see what goes on in our military!
I am not sure what to think of all the accusations today. With the Weinstein stuff it seems like plenty of those overpaid actress's consented to certain things in exchange for money, lots and lots of money.
With one Senatorial race it seems one right after another the women are being proven liars with motives.
Others make me very sad. I have women in my life who were seriously assaulted by people they should have been able to trust and have such disdain for that type of behavior I don't have the vocabulary to describe short of really making the forum autocorrect work some serious over time..
On a side note.. Senator McCarthy was right. History proved this but never cleared his name.
pinchvalve said:My question is how men who are such complete a-holes can rise to the positions that they have? Weinstien was worth up to $300 million. Lauer certainly was doing OK. US Senators generally are not living paycheck to paycheck. WTH? I feel like adding "have never and would never sexually harass or assault anyone" on my resume as it seems to be a skill in short supply these days!
It's all about power. As a congresscritter, they have more or less absolute power over a lot of things in their state. That kind of stuff can go to your head. If you were already a semi-scumbag, you can be sure the scum is going to rise to the surface.
I am very sympathetic because I got a taste of it myself when I was in college. At 5'11" and 135 pounds, I probably should not have had long hair, but I did. I got a LOT of catcalls, jeering, and the like from older men until they realized I was a guy, then the real slurs came out. It's not pretty out there, I hope we can change that
dangerously close to floundering on this topic.
Margie/other mods, apologies if this toes a line.
I see no problem with people being called out on behavior, the problem is the speed and result of trial in the court of public opinion. There may be elements of a witch hunt used for advantageous purposes and a mechanism will have to be found to curb this. What it would be? I have no bloody idea. Now, for clarification, the difference is that there is real substance broadly in this, where witch hunting would not have substance. Calling it an out and out witch hunt would be to deny the existence of the issue and I dont feel that there is any way the existence of the issue at large can be denied.
As the end to slavery led to civil rights led to more and more bridging of the inequities of the lives of african americans (which continues to this day), so the womens movement is facing its own incremental bridging. It has never been right that men could culturally get away with treating women disrespectfully and forcing things of any sexual nature upon them in speech and deed. While it has never been right, theres no denying that it has happened. Calling out a wrong enacted by a person in a position of power is something of a basic human right in my thought.
Things have happened and a straw broke. What we are seeing is the process of a cultural change. Wont happen overnight, wont happen all that smoothly. Thats not to say that it shouldnt happen at all.
For instance, here on this own forum. The GGA thread, was objectifying. Opinions split, but they may not have split the same as if the subject matter was men instead of women and that alone is problematic. I felt it was right that it got buried and that its absence made this a better community.
People should be judged for their actions and some actions are wrong. There are scales of wrong. As always, judgment should not be rushed to in a vacuum of actual fact and should not only be based on hearsay.
Oh...Senator McCarthy. I thought you were discussing Jenny McCarthy! (drum slap).
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