Whether sexual orientation is a choice, innate, or conditioned, I have trouble understanding why it is important. It could be different for different people. It doesn't seem much difference than religion; some people choose it, some people have it chosen for them, some people grow into it, etc..
I have nothing useful to add to this, other than non of the gay friends I have were hit on the head prior to becoming gay. I was watching Dr Who while reading this thread though, the Christmas special with Kylie Minogue in, and after those other photo's on the previous page I decided this thread needed some added Kylie. So here she is.
MitchellC wrote: Whether sexual orientation is a choice, innate, or conditioned, I have trouble understanding why it is important. It could be different for different people. It doesn't seem much difference than religion; some people choose it, some people have it chosen for them, some people grow into it, etc..
I might get some flak here for this, but I'm not trying to condemn anyone here:
As a Catholic, romantic sexuality (a small part of sexuality, really) is a seen as ordered towards bonding of spouses and the begetting and raising of children. As such, homosexual desires are a disordered desire, that is, it is a desire that isn't quite working for the benefit of the person as a whole. We see it in a similar light to an alcoholic's desire for alcohol.
As such, it would be the responsibility of this person with homosexual desires to not act upon them, and, if possible, seek to correct those disordered desires. Like alcoholics, some with homosexual attractions, through cognitive therapy, etc, can reform those desires and live a healthy heterosexual lifestyle. Others struggle with it the rest of their lives.
However, the claims that homosexuality is innate or even intrinsic implies that the homosexual urges he feels is an essential part of his identity, and that it would be wrong to try to deny or change those desires.
I want to stress that the fundamental Catholic attitude towards this is that the desires themselves are not sinful, and that people with those desires are not hellspawns. Instead, it is living a homosexual lifestyle that is sinful. To boil it down even more simply: hate the sin, not the sinner.
Mental wrote: Only on GRM does a sarcastic mockery of a tabloid article degenerate not into name calling but a detailed and intelligent discussion on brain wiring and influences as it relates to choice.
I have been more than impressed with the GRM members on here in that respect.
Bobzilla wrote:Jay wrote:Duh. I want to stay straight so they can kick me in the nads all they want! Wait...... aw damnit.Bobzilla wrote: Happened to me. I got hit hard inthe head. Woke up ghey. Luckily the following week I got kicked in the balls and went back straight. I've been wearing a helmet every since. True story....but no cup?
I NEED NO FURTHER INVITATION!
Adrian_Thompson wrote: I have nothing useful to add to this, other than non of the gay friends I have were hit on the head prior to becoming gay. I was watching Dr Who while reading this thread though, the Christmas special with Kylie Minogue in, and after those other photo's on the previous page I decided this thread needed some added Kylie. So here she is.
You were right. Please add Kylie to all of the other threads on this board.
scardeal wrote: I might get some flak here for this, but I'm not trying to condemn anyone here: --trimmed text, see scardeal's post starting with the above line--
Of central importance to me in the above: The distinction between whether or not the person in question is Catholic.
While I'm inclined to take issue with a number of points, much of it is a matter of the internal workings of the Catholic church, which is beyond my purview. There are many things about the Catholic church which make no sense to me, but that doesn't have to cause problems for either Catholics or myself.
Like this forum, it doesn't mean we can't happily coexist.
It's mostly when we apply our beliefs outside our group that we have conflict.
If a person is gay and Catholic, they have some serious thinking to do.
If a person is gay and an atheist or has spiritual beliefs not conflicting with homosexuality, I don't see where there is an issue.
Re-apologies for excusing myself and then popping back in. I'm torn between not having the time/mental capacity for this right now, and feeling that it's very important to not be counted as tacitly agreeing through silence.
At least Kylie Minogue is not such a complicated issue...
Just a quick comment:
I'm continually impressed with the Catholic Church's understanding of the human person, and regularly hear about third-party unrelated (read: presumably unbiased) academic studies that support that understanding. What I'm trying to say is, don't dismiss its viewpoints as strictly for Catholics simply because it comes from a Catholic source.
In reply to scardeal:
True enough. I'm sure there's a large amount of wisdom and observation of the human condition within the church. Earnestly. There are many religions and philosophies in the world. Most have something to offer, I think, when studied thoughtfully.
My issue here is the distinction between someone choosing to seek the church's view and having the church's viewpoints thrust upon them. [EDIT: I see perhaps a glitch in the way I've stated this. In this case, we're mercifully not at the point of requiring adherence to a differing viewpoint. I guess the issue I have is that it sounds like your belief about homosexuality is that it is a sicknesslike and problematic state, and you believe this not just about Catholics, but about anybody. That, I think, is what troubles me.]
I don't believe there are any gods. But it doesn't do me any harm that you do believe. It's only when it is asserted that one of us must adopt the other's beliefs that there is necessarily conflict.
When I see friends of mine who are happy, healthy, and living what I see as good lives are told that an aspect of who they are is akin to alcoholism and should be repressed, that strikes me as very much akin to being told to abandon one's beliefs in favor of someone else's, and that one's own beliefs are invalid because they are not the same as that other's.
Frankly, I want everyone to be Catholic and to believe what it teaches. That aspect of it is kinda part and parcel of actually believing its teachings. If you believe that what it speaks is true, then you believe everything that disagrees with it is necessarily false. Anything less would be intellectually dishonest.
Does that mean that I'm going to shove it down your throat? No, we all have free will. I want you to believe, but I want you to believe of your own free will without feeling like your arm was twisted into it or that you were manipulated.
Voicing disagreement and giving reasons for that disagreement does not constitute thrusting it upon them. I'm not saying, "Hey, you have to believe this" I'm saying, "I think this teaching is universally true." You're free to disagree.
I am saying that I believe that it's a problematic state for anybody. I'm not going to deny that. I'm painfully aware, however, that we all have our flaws and challenges and difficulties. We're all human here. We're all trying to figure life out. It's like dealing with my family. Are some of them messed up? Yes. Do I still love them anyway? Yes. Am I going to back down from my beliefs? No. Frankly, Catholicism is the best cheat sheet on life I've found.
So, to sum up, I have no intention of condemning your friends who are living a homosexual lifestyle. If I knew them, I'd probably want to get into a discussion about their lifestyle, but it certainly wouldn't be "You have to believe this!"
In reply to scardeal:
That's an excellent summary of the crux of the issue, and I think is a pretty good mirror of my own stance. I want everyone to become atheists, but I understand that they won't.
I wish more people were as reasonable as yourself about the necessity of learning to reconcile the firmness of our own beliefs with a respect for the firmness of others' beliefs. It's no good trying to convert everybody; it's effort better spent figuring out how to get along while differing.
When I have a problem with others' beliefs, it is not the belief that I have an issue with; it's the arm-twisting of others, whether by discrimination, condemnation, or violence.
Here's an article that I stumbled upon. I thought it might be an interesting read for many because it is from the perspective of a Catholic man who is gay and actually trying to follow the teachings of the Catholic Church:
http://littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.com/2011/07/gay-catholic-and-doing-fine.html?m=1
And here's the author's blog: http://www.stevegershom.com/
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