First House, Lots of Questions! :)

Antihero wrote: $1200 a window ?!?!?! All vinyl Windows do just fine and cost a tenth of that

Not if they are installed.

You can buy a cheap vinyl window from HD for about $150. $120 is pretty low. But then you'd have to install it.

That would not be useful as an average. The features people want like lowE, Argon filled etc would definitely be more. Safety glass for bath windows or low windows would be more. Egress windows for bedrooms would be more. Large windows (like those ones in the picture of the OP's house) would be more.

The average price per window of a job done right will be a LOT more than $120 per window.

Installed windows will cost quite a bit more, and vary greatly by region. I would expect an average to be about $500-600 per opening.

Duke's number was probably the top of the range for installed windows, but not impossible. And since this is a theoretical budgeting excercise, why not?

BTW, a pro window install job usually includes wrapping the exterior trims with aluminum trim coil. This is usually beyond the capabilities of a homeowner.

I hate the look of aluminum wrapped trim but it's not beyond a homeowners abilities. Tools are rentable and coil is available. When some of my trim was bad I replaced it with new wood. That was expensive and very time consuming.

$150 in my case did get low-e argon filled windows double hung with screens but no grilles. I'm sure it's gone up as that was 15 years ago.

$1200 a window is probably right for a good installation of good quality wood windows. But there are plenty of options for less.

In reply to dculberson:

Key word was "usually".

Metal fabrication and custom brake forming is usually beyond the capabilities of a homeowner. Not a true statement for most on this board, but still a true statement.

The point is, a $150 window installed by the homeowner is NOT the same as a $600 window installed by a pro, or the $1200 window Duke was referencing.

...Actually, I'll go further than that...

Quality custom brake forming is often beyond the capabilities of a pro. I have 40 years experience, and still can't do it as well as some of the top notch window installers I've seen.

There are a lot of tricks, that are only learned with time.

Welding can be done by anyone too!

For a house that age, it seems odd that the windows have a single pane of glass for each sash - I would have expected two or four panes in each one. It makes me wonder if they were updated at some time in the past.

Having said that I'm not a big fan of modern vinyl windows stuck in a 120 year old house, they just kill the looks. It is possible to rebuild the existing windows by reglazing the glass, replacing the weatherstrip, and adding insulation inside the weight pockets. Then, add some decent storm windows and they will be pretty efficient. It is a lot of sweat equity but there aren't that many windows in that house; just pick away at it and do one window at a time.

First off, sorry the house was built in 1900, not 1990... My bad.

Connected smoke detectors definitely makes sense. Due to the age of the house it could definitely be a PAIN. I will have to look into it and possibly get some estimates. I'll have to check into the ordinances too.

For the windows, I do need to have a lead pain inspection done in general, then I could look at refurbishing the current windows or replacing. For me, form follows function, working windows with good insulation are better than period correct windows that suck. Many of the current windows don't want to open, which is a fire escape hazard.

I think if I can get critical windows openable for safety, then springtime is when I'll DO something about them. Until then, I have a lot of research to do.

I can already feel my wallet getting lighter... :)

I owned a house near there at one time.

Large single pane windows are common around there. And they are very large. Those windows are probably about 6' high overall.

And thanks for all the input everyone!

It is both exciting and scary at the same time. The triplex plan is definitely a good one. I legally have to live in it for 1 year to fulfill the requirements of my loan, then I can look into refinancing and doing another one, and so on.

AWSX1686 wrote: Many of the current windows don't want to open, which is a fire escape hazard.

I teach my kids to never delay trying to open a window to escape. In the event of a fire, don't hesitate to throw a chair through it!

SVreX wrote:

AWSX1686 wrote: Many of the current windows don't want to open, which is a fire escape hazard.

I teach my kids to never delay trying to open a window to escape. In the event of a fire, don't hesitate to throw a chair through it!

True, but to cover my landlord rear end, they better work. Putting a chair or fist or bat or < insert hard/heavy object here > is a hazard for broken glass.

It's going to be fun getting everything to the level it should be. Not everything necessarily needs to be super nice, it's a rental, I shouldn't waste money where it is not needed. (People will likely trash things.) BUT, it's a rental, so I need to CYA (Cover your assets) legally and make sure everything is up to spec on safety.

SVreX wrote: In reply to dculberson: Key word was "usually". Metal fabrication and custom brake forming is usually beyond the capabilities of a homeowner. Not a true statement for most on this board, but still a true statement. The point is, a $150 window installed by the homeowner is NOT the same as a $600 window installed by a pro, or the $1200 window Duke was referencing.

Definitely true . for my area 600 is still quite high.

My point was there are far cheaper options out there and not to be afraid of vinyl Windows

You are definitely correct regarding liability.

AWSX1686 wrote: Not everything necessarily needs to be super nice, it's a rental, I shouldn't waste money where it is not needed. (People will likely trash things.)

May I suggest a different philosophy?

They are rentals, but it's an owner-occupied rental. That gives you the ability to demand more. I would build them nice, and raise my expectations on the tenants.

When you are showing them, I would say, "Yes, the price is higher. But this is an exceptional unit, and I live here. I want the best tenants I can find to live in my home with me. Are you looking for the best?"

I know landlords who have done this, and end up with tenants who stay for 20 years.

It also makes your property much more sellable to the next buyer (at a premium), with or without the tenants.

If you try to compete on price, you will be welcoming the lowest tenants into your home. They will bring roaches, and crime, and vandalism, and general disrespect. They will also be able to monitor everything about your comings and goings, which puts you at greater risk. Don't try to compete on price for an owner-occupied multi-family.

In reply to SVreX:

No disagreement here; brake metal is a skill that needs practice. Still even good brake metal detracts from the looks of almost any house.

In reply to dculberson:

Well, I agree with your opinion, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder! I know a lot of people who would disagree.

...and people who like vinyl replacement windows in historic houses usually LIKE trim coil on the outside. That's why professional installs basically always include it (which should be considered when comparing prices).

The only thing I can say good about trim coil on Historic houses- at least they didn't destroy the trim. They cover it- maybe someone in the future can save it.

My ex's house was built around the same time (1890). Some of the existing windows were original, some were aging aluminum replacements. She bought custom windows from Pella (they send a rep out to measure each one). All of the windows on the front part of the house nearest the street were true divided panes and around $800/ea (some are fairly large). She lives in an "historic" area and although the house has been modified so much over the last century, the rules are lax, she still wanted the house to have an historic appearance - especially since it's about 8' from the road. The less visible ones have full panes with internal dividers and cost about half as much.

We did all of the installation ourselves. 17 windows, IIRC. For the most part, the trim was left alone. After some practice, we were able to get the removal/prep/install routine down to about an hour after work. Don't underestimate the prep required on a 120 year old window frame. In most cases, replacing the "replacement" windows was more of a PITA than replacing the originals.

The second floor windows were fun. While much of the work is done from the inside, it was still fun being up on a ladder after dark caulking the windows in.

I agree about the smoke detectors. Chances are, the house was set up as a rental before interconnected detectors were required. Yes, installing after the fact will be difficult at best. What floor is the owner apartment on? You may be able to install them in each apartment as they are available and then connect them as they're installed. But it really depends on the house.

SVreX wrote:

AWSX1686 wrote: Many of the current windows don't want to open, which is a fire escape hazard.

I teach my kids to never delay trying to open a window to escape. In the event of a fire, don't hesitate to throw a chair through it!

Small threadjack here. Windows tend to be a lot tougher to do that with than people think. Much like the "I'll break out a car window if I go into the water while driving".

At my facility we have essentially armored windows (laminated safety glass) and a few years ago a woman told me she was glad to have a window because if there was a fire she would throw a chair through it and escape. She was taken aback when I explained to her I'd done it, with a 20 oz framing hammer, safety glasses, gloves, and 15 minutes. Our windows are TOUGH, the place used to be a mental health hospital and you can't have the patients getting through the glass.

On topic, what sort of cost would be involved getting the place plumbed for residential sprinkling coverage?

KyAllroad wrote:

SVreX wrote:

AWSX1686 wrote: Many of the current windows don't want to open, which is a fire escape hazard.

I teach my kids to never delay trying to open a window to escape. In the event of a fire, don't hesitate to throw a chair through it!

Small threadjack here. Windows tend to be a lot tougher to do that with than people think. Much like the "I'll break out a car window if I go into the water while driving". At my facility we have essentially armored windows (laminated safety glass) and a few years ago a woman told me she was glad to have a window because if there was a fire she would throw a chair through it and escape. She was taken aback when I explained to her I'd done it, with a 20 oz framing hammer, safety glasses, gloves, and 15 minutes. Our windows are TOUGH, the place used to be a mental health hospital and you can't have the patients getting through the glass. On topic, what sort of cost would be involved getting the place plumbed for residential sprinkling coverage?

Impressive! Glass can definitely be tough!

As for cost of plumbing sprinklers, I wouldn't know, but I shudder to think of it. I'm sure my plumber could do it though.

If it's not required by Code for the building, I wouldn't do it.

The water damage from a sprinkler activation can be nearly as bad as fire damage. Especially in a residence.

Welcome to house ownership. Throw your wallet into the river and burn it

dculberson wrote: In reply to SVreX: No disagreement here; brake metal is a skill that needs practice. Still even good brake metal detracts from the looks of almost any house.

When we had our windows done (also central PA, originals ~6' high in rooms with 9; ceilings, single pane each), I had the outside frames aluminum wrapped, but had it written into the contract to retain the existing profile and allow the existing shutters to be mounted. Turned a 1 day project for the contractor into a 3 day... but well worth it. We even retained one wooden moulding on each of the windows so the profile from outside looks like it did before, but with the benefits of aluminum. :)