From Small Job to Total House Renovation Review ARCHITECT needed

So the question is how to choose a good residential architect or engineer for some work on my home.

Back story:

I started down trying to just figure out how to vent the humidity out of our maximum use bathroom. In my previous post I gave these details about the house.

The house is old early 1930s. Walls are plaster on rock lathe board (metal lathe reinforcing the joints between ceiling and wall), then studs, probably some paper, air gap then red brick exterior walls. The porcelain bath tile is the old thick style and extends up to 48 inchs around the room and then up to 6 foot in the tub area. Above the tile is the plaster wall.

Project planning summary:

Basically I think we need to look more strategically at rebuilding the house as the wiring and most of the plumbing is original to the house. Primary concern is the protection of some irreplaceable features of the house. They include:

• Marble window sills
• Wood paneled den/library
• Wood paneled basement walls (probably with asbestos tiled ceiling and floor)
• Marble shelves in bathrooms
• 2nd and first floor bathrooms porcelain
• Ornate plaster work on many room ceilings.

I know we need to get this designed rather than just asking contractors to quote jobs. I would likely ask for the architect work to provide the following:

• Complete current as built drawings or 3D model of the house.
• Complete analysis of how to segment projects to complete the replacement of electrical, replacement of plumbing, repurposing of a basement bathroom, renovation of attic bathroom, adding some features(bathroom vents, additional water heater, kitchen venting, kitchen remodeling)

I know how to find design services for big multimillion dollar projects at work but feel that residential stuff would be very different.

HELP PLEASE

You can ask your local AIA chapter, and they'll give you recommendations, but they will only recommend AIA-affilliated architects. That's a good start, but not all registered architects are AIA, so you will be limiting yourself. Still, speaking as a non-affilliated architect, I would start there.

What you're looking for is a smaller firm or even a sole practitioner. Big firms won't want to bother with this, and if they do, it'll cost a mint. It's still not going to be cheap, but I applaud your decision to invest in professional advice.

Honestly, you're going to have to interview a handful and see who you hit it off with. I would google "architect" and your area and start checking out websites, then make some phone calls. You can also add "historic" to your search. I would add "residential" as a last resort, because that's going to open up an ugly can of mostly-incompetent worms.

I did start with AIA and put together a short list of the firms that seem smaller. Most of what I found seem to only do major retail, stadiums, hospitals, any mention of residential was for apartment units or mixed use development.

@ DUKE

What are the residential architects doing these days for documents?

2D drawings from a CAD program or 3D models?

"Residential architect" is almost an oxymoron. There are very few.

The guys who actually still make their income from purely residential MAY still be drawing by hand.

In 41 years in the industry, I have never seen a 3D model of an existing residence.

So is it just best to take the year or so it would take me to build my own drawings in AutoCAD?

I have the knowledge just not much time. Also all my building design experience is new commercial stuff. I guess I can search for old house autocad blocks. Maybe someone already created some objects that I can use.

Do you have any homes nearby on the National Historic Register? I think I'd start by asking the homeowner of one of those houses for who they used for any applicable renovation work to the interior of the house.

Best way to watch a remodel's costs spiral out of control is to hire an architect. Once they draw it you have to build it that way and they think that just because they can draw it, you can build it. May work great on new construction but not on remodel work. I've seen them draw in doorways where electrical home runs are, spec in kick space heaters on cast iron heating systems, draw in complete bathrooms that can't possible drain by gravity because of steel beams they speced. Worst I ever saw was a garage addition added to the side of the house where the electrical meter was located. Plans showed new meter socket on the outside of the garage. Looked good on paper until you get to the site and realize there is 100 feet on dense trees between the pole and where the new meter socket went. That was a $10,000 tree guy bill and the yard looked like crap afterwards. My advise is always do the demo and then be prepared to change things around depending on what you find. Architects don't like to change things around unless they get paid all over again.

tr8todd wrote: Best way to watch a remodel's costs spiral out of control is to hire an incompetent architect.

Wow, generalize much? Might as well say that the best way to watch an automotive repair cost spiral out of control is to hire an ASE certified mechanic.

@ Advan: It's going to take a fair bit of research, unfortunately. Try googling "restoration architect", or go beyond the list that the AIA gave you. The AIA is a private professional organization and does NOT have any official standing, so there are many registered architects who are not AIA affiliated (I am one). Dues are expensive and so some smaller firms don't bother joining.

Where are you located? I'll see if I can find some referrals.

On the flip side of Paul's post, when I do residential work - well, really any work - I always build it in 3D. It does cost a little extra, and you might not need it, but if you find an architect you hit it off with, you can probably come to an arrangement on scope of services vs. fee. A lot of cost depends upon the level of detail put into the model.

The house is in Detroit. It is near a national historic district but not really any houses like mine. Mostly schools churches and apartment complexes.

Thanks Duke, I know that my main issue is finding someone willing to do such low cost work. I would appreciate any leads you may have. Like I said I started with AIA and built a small list of people to try and talk to but most seem focused on big commercial projects. I also looked at Angie's list, google search, and tried to find out if the restoration of the Turkel House was helped by any architect/engineers.

I guess I will have to start the footwork of calling them but didn't want to start calling before I had some idea of how hard this would be.

Looks like there are a bunch in Michigan, according to the Michigan State Historic Preservation Office ("Shippo").

Ann Arbor - and some in Detroit too.

I would look for the individual names that match the firm name - more likely to be a small outfit like I think you want. Get a few on the horn, tell them what you're looking for, and see if anybody jumps out as a good fit. Most architects of smaller projects are willing to give you limited-scope services for a limited-scope fee. Tell them for starters that you'd like to hire them for half a day or a day to come visit the house and walk through to give you some general advice, and that will lead to a more formal project if the prognosis is good.

Many will come make a short visit for free just to see the place and figure out what work to give a proposal for. If you find somebody you like expect to pay $100-$125/hour or so... but if it's an interesting project, you probably won't get billed for every hour, either. You can always work out a time and materials fee with an upset limit / Not To Exceed number up front.

In reply to tr8todd:

I'm with Duke. I completely disagree with your generalization.

The best way to ruin a fine piece of historic architecture is to refuse to work with a qualified design professional because you are a cheapazz.

Crazy, I use SHPO all the time for work but never thought to look there for this LOL!!!!

http://www.ekocite.com/AboutUs.aspx looks small enough. At first glance the others seem to be part of the same mega firms that I found on AIA. There are one or two on AIA that might also be small.

I will start from here. I wasn't sure if trying to do a Not to Exceed would get me crazy looks. Good to know that you think it may work.

Oh one more question. I guess I am circling back to a high level thought process about this.

I have found with my crossing industries and regions that the word used to describe the person doing "X" can change.

So my goal of this is to get to some drawings that I can then use to get quotes for projects to complete the utilities work. So I am expecting, identification of load bearing walls, conduit and run paths for electrical and plumbing, concepts of conversion of the basement bathroom to a second water heater/telecom closet or other utility space, concepts of attic bathroom conversion or remodeling.

Does all of that fall under "architect" or do I need to find an "engineer" (like me) or do I need to find a "designer"

Most architects love to do T+M / NTE fees for work like this, because they get paid for the work they do but the client doesn't have a heart attack when they see a lump sum proposal big enough (hopefully) to stop the architect from losing money.

Good luck and don't hesitate to PM me or ask here if I can be of any help.

An architect is going to be my recommendation. Best overall compromise between "designer" (which really doesn't have a firm definition, and typically does not include a lot of technical knowledge) and "engineer" (definition not needed if you is one).

Any architect is going to be able to give you what you describe, except for the real nuts and bolts stuff like conduit runs. Frankly, most engineers won't get that nitty gritty unless there are extremely tricky conditions to work out. They give the home panel locations and the circuiting and it is up to the field guys to figure out the best runs. That being said, any architect will talk in general terms about that stuff ("We'll leave a chase here for ducts or piping...") and include it in the design.

The architect will also be able to figure out any minor structural issues, and if they need a little input, they'll call a structural engineer buddy and get a few minutes of quid pro quo advice. They will recommend or subcontract a structural engineer if there are significant structural issues.

Plumbers will all () bore holes in all the wrong places and compromise your structural framing...

... Especially when an architect fails to coordinate framing placement and plumbing routing.

In every occupation, there are lots of hacks. A good residential architect is fairly unique, so use your network and ask some "high end" residential contractors for referrals. They know.

I would start by asking a couple Architects for a short meeting, show them the house and talk about it. From the start, make it clear that you are willing to pay for the work and not waste their time.

Tell them up front that you want accurate measured drawings (electronic files in X format) of existing conditions, identifying load paths and major systems that can be seen. Plans, elevations, sections. That's scope item #1.

Then give yourself an opportunity to part company or continue and develop ideas for renovations, based on how well it went getting item #1 completed.

Good luck.

sounds like a job for Norm Abram and Tom Silva

Does he also need drawrings?

In reply to OHSCrifle:

I was just looking for current state drawings to start. Like you said probably need a breather after that to make sure we know what we want to have done. Then either go with a contractor that can use the drawings we have to create construction drawings and complete the work. Or go back to the architect and have them do the construction drawings.

I think I've been clear that I admire your willingness to pay design professionals for their appropriate services.

Having said that, it also sounds like you are really over-thinking this.

It is VERY unlikely that a set of as-builts would show anything at all about electrical and plumbing locations other than fixture and device locations, which everyone can see. They MIGHT identify an existing chase, but that's about it.

And why would you need them? If the electrical is all being upgraded, you certainly don't need 3D as-built models of the current electrical system.

I've spent most of my life doing historic renovation. There are a lot of variables, but plaster lathe walls are still plaster lathe walls.

I think you may need an architect's services to design new work, and do a full assessment of existing components of significance, but I can't figure out what you hope to accomplish with the detailed as-builts.

Residential architectural plans don't generally show routing of wires and pipes. They show not-to-scale schematics. Mostly the same thing with HVAC.

You will get a lot more bang for you buck if you hire an architect for an assessment and design, then work with a qualified contractor with experience at historic work. (You've said it is old, but have not really even said it is historic).

Even if you COULD get a 3D model of the MEP, most residential contractors couldn't read it, so it won't help you compare quotes.

I think you are over thinking it.

Assuming you get along, I would definitely go back to the architect. The contractor is going to use whatever cheap community college kid or retired draftsman they know to do the bare minimum. They may tell you it's "free", but you'll be paying for it in the project cost, and the drafter won't be working for you. If you're going to the effort of finding an architect and getting substantial documentation of the existing conditions now, don't cheap out on the design and construction drawings.

Again, negotiate the scope of work and fee ahead of time and don't be afraid to tell the architect exactly the level of detail you're looking for. And if you know a contractor you want to work with, get them involved at that stage too. Talk to the architect and get recommendations. I'm a big proponent of cooperation between owner, architect, and builder during the design phase.

I agree with Duke.

Reading between the lines, it sounds like you are trying to do a full assessment in order to have good documentation when the time come to select a contractor. If that's the case, it's not gonna work. You can't compare apples to apples in contractors.

Identify BOTH your design team AND your contractor up front, based on their qualifications. Work together to develop the best overall project. Don't assume that better architectural involvement at the beginning will enable you to pick a better contractor later based on price, just because you have a nice set of plans.

It is VERY likely there are only a small handful of architects and contractors in your area who would be qualified to do a job like this. You can eliminate half of them with a phone call, just because you don't get along. That will leave you with only 2 or 3 of each.

Choose a contractor (or a designer) based on qualifications, not price.

In reply to SVreX:

Good points as usual. I've created detailed scale drawings of every house I lived in, just because I can and I find it interesting and fun. Also because I have a habit of moving walls and bathrooms (and jacking up sagging floors) - and having a good handle on load paths is really useful.

I wouldn't get crazy with as-builts for the MEP stuff, but I definitely would want to know where the flues and stacks are located and where the wiring tends to be (in attic or basement or 'somewhere in between')