Get out the excavator and help me go down a rabbit hole of money loss and heartache - tube amps!!!

Long story short:
After resisting the urge for decades, I'm going to get into tube amplification (hi-fi, not guitar or anything with with any social value). Skip down to "This is where you come in" to help me ruin my life.

Long story long:
I move a few weeks ago. I knew the new house wouldn't have a dedicated space to build another dedicated home theater so I sold my magnepans (7 of them!!!! How'd that happen?).
I've moved into one of those stupid "open concept floor plan" houses that I generally don't like. But it is what it is. With the open concept and lack of a room to dedicate to a home theater, I'm going to go back to 2-channel, well, 2.1 or 2.2 specifically. That has led me to do a total re-do of the system. I've decided tubes is in order, maybe even vinyl as well if I can grow the beard needed to have a turntable these days. I'm afraid I'm not hipster enough LOL.  

This is where you come in:
Help educate me in the world of tube amps. Currently I have an Emotive UMC-200 preamp and Emotive XPA-7 amp. These are absolutely incredible items and I whole-heartedly recommend Emotiva stuff to anyone that wants the sound of stuff that costs thousands while only spending hundreds.  I'll be selling these to fund the amp/preamp purchase.
Anyway, I only need 2 channels as I have a couple monoblocks (solid state) for my subs.
Here's a few general questions:

• What do you have and do you like it?
• Single-ended or push-pull?
• I'm used to having 300-400 watts per channel, plus the monoblocks that ensure movies are felt and heard. I'll never really be able to do that type of listening again, and I accept that. Will I really be happy with something between 6 and 40 watts?
• If I go with a power amp (tubes) and a preamp, should the preamp be tubes also? If I go with a solid state preamp, am I losing some of the benefits of tubes?
• What about integrated tube amps? I think they have SS preamp sections?

Lastly, I'm going to be doing a real ground-up design. From researching the amp and possibly preamp, to measuring the drivers to get the true thiel-small parameters, to designing the cabinets (transmission line, sealed, open baffle, etc, etc.), to room acoustics, the whole kit and caboodle. Is there any interest in a build thread and/or youtube video? 

Now I know I can, and just might, post these questions on an audiophile board but I fully expect to be told that I need to spend $10K on the amp, $4K on the speaker wires, $1K on speaker wire stands, I need to have my earway sonically shaped by an audiologist to make sure I'm getting the full benefit of the $1K tubes I'll need to swap in, and on and on. I'm not dropping buckets of money, maybe a grand on the amp, probably less. This is grassroots audiophile here.   

Man, if your speaker wire stands are not fully vibration resistant and also made of Panamanian Cocobolo, what is the point? 

Just to help drive the conversation, why have you decided that going with tube amplification is the way to go?

Super pretty? You like to have something expensive to tinker with? Looks cool? You like the sonic character?

Wouldn't it make sense to work from the front end backwards? First figure out what speakers you need to drive, and that'll dictate your power requirements. Have you picked a set of mains?

How open concept is your house. Like mine with 1500sqf main room, pony walls or not, lots of soffits. Second and its more personal how are your ears and have they been tested recently. I am at least 15% gone in the right ear and 20% in the left from the hot rods and motorcycles. I hit a floor for what I could tell the difference on much low in cost then I though and need much more power to get to the levels I like to listen at. 

I have been down this road with the really big open floor plans and honestly I like my wall/ceiling for normal music and I have a dedicated headphone setup for really critical listening. 

In reply to mtn :

I'm having the speaker wire stands filled with sand from a secret beach on the Adriatic Sea mixed with facial hair shavings from Tibetan monks. The shavings help with the midrange. You should just hear the difference!! 

In reply to the_machina :

Just part of the audio hobby I've never been down. They have a reputation for a different sound, like vinyl vs cd. I've played around with stuff since I was in high-school and always new this was a road I'd go down. 
I have the speakers chosen and purchased already. They are a VERY hard to find pair of Celesion 5.25" drivers. From my research they were designed as studio monitors for recording studios, (possibly) leaning heavily toward classical music and stringed instruments. They are just superb. The only speakers I've personally heard in a home (so not in a high-end audio shop with 50,000 with of amplification and speaker wire stands) were my Magnepans. I'm not 100% sure on the sensitivity (yet, I'll be measuring that), but nearest I can tell they are 93+ dB. They should really sing with a nice amp. They sounded astounding with my old Rotel. 

In reply to wearymicrobe :

No pony walls. But cathedral ceilings. Not sure how that's going to do really. Never messed with that. Also, tiled floor. A first for me. This will be an adventure.
I haven't head my hearing tested in the last 5 years, but when it was tested the audiologist (tech?) said it was almost spooky that I could hear tones almost nobody could hear. I have always worn hearing protection when at a racing event or concert. I have been into audio my whole life. When my hearing drops off, I'll be seriously bummed.

I've been running tube amps since the 70's (high school) because I really like the sound of them.  Just recently swapped the main stereo to solid state since I need five channels/speaker (linkwitz lx521s) so the tube stuff is delegated to the basement for a while but I'm not parting with it.

It's best if you actually listen to whatever you're thinking about buying.  If you buy used, you should probably figure a re-tubing into the price and output tubes every couple of years for average use.  Many amps require a DMM to set bias on retubing and occasionally thereafter.  Can you deal with that?

Tubes have an apparent power greater than their ratings since they overload much more gracefully than solid state stuff.  35w/channel is probably enough with reasonably efficient speakers.  There can be a big difference in sound between equipment depending on vintage and design.  (listen before you buy)  And being a purist, I would run a tube preamp too. 

All this said, I've finally come around to believing that a high res digital system with a high resolution source and a high end dac and class D (digital) amps is both more accurate and sounds as good as the old tech.  YMMV.

Why not keep the XPA-7 as your power amp for now, pick up a tubed preamp, a standalone crossover (either active or passive, or maybe built into your pre?) and see where that gets you. I feel like a tube preamp gets you a lot of the flavor of tubes without the excess heat of having a tube power amp section.

the_machina said:

Why not keep the XPA-7 as your power amp for now, pick up a tubed preamp, a standalone crossover (either active or passive, or maybe built into your pre?) and see where that gets you. I feel like a tube preamp gets you a lot of the flavor of tubes without the excess heat of having a tube power amp section.

That's good idea

My thought's on tube amps are purely from a headphone perspective... much prefer headphones to speakers since they take the room acoustics out of the equation and give a clearer more intimate insight into music. (I did have a 7.2 surround setup for my projector based HT setup, and had the fronts run on my RME ADI-2 DAC as preamp with NAD C275BEE stereo amp for music). I really like what the right headphone tube/amp brings compared to a strictly SS headphone amp. A good tube gives instrument separation and sense of space/3D presentation you just don't get from a SS amp. What the SS amp does give over tube amp is low end subbass slam/punch... with the right tube you can get a warm and big low end... but it simply hits softer than a nice warm leaning SS amp. What you get with the right tube for subbass is a little better extension and finese. Since the headphones I have punch very well in subbass (Denon AH-D5200 with Yaxi TH600 Alcantara pads [warmer and bit more sound stage than the stock pads]) a little softening and little better extension is much appreciated. I like neutral & clean DAC with a warm & clean amp... RME ADI-2 DAC with the tube amp is great combo.

The tube amp I actually run is a hybrid, using a single preamp 9-pin Noval type tube input with SS output - a Garage 1217 Project Ember 2. The tubes I've come to like best with it is either a Reflector 6H23P-EB or Sovtek 6H30P-EB... they have very clean sound, low noise, and great separation while also giving a solid low end and musical warmth to vocals. Other tubes like the CIFTE 12AU7 give insane level of a 3D holographic presentation and separation but is a bit too thin and flat sounding, bass a bit lacking. And something like the Mullard 6201 has impressive low end presence but is noisy and bit lacking in separation and treble detail along with not the cleanest sounding.

I say tube amps are a great thing to try if you want to add a bit of warmth and better separation/holographic presentation to your listening.

I have a McIntosh 240 I'd send you

pilotbraden said:

I have a McIntosh 240 I'd send you

What!?  Do you really have one?  

DrBoost said:

pilotbraden said:

I have a McIntosh 240 I'd send you

What!?  Do you really have one?  

If Dr. Boost backs out I'll be in, along with a donation to your favorite charity

Yes I have one. Call me and we can set something up. I'm thinking long term loan. I still have the same phone number.

I have a Hi-Fi system with a tube amp. I've only really gotten into Hi-Fi in the past year, and that happened because my dad gifted me this system (except the sub). So I really do not have a point of comparison between high end solid state and tube. My dad has a setup using same family of mains (though moderately nicer) and we ended up picking almost the same sub to pair with them. I *believe* he uses solid state amp and preamp to drive his system. Both of our systems are very nice. I recall his setup sounding nicer with better more 3d staging than mine. But that is primarily due to the acoustics of where we set up our stereos and listening positions. His is in a bigger, more open room, where the accoustics are live, but has oddly angled walls and ceiling that that result in effectively no first-order reflections. Mine is in a low-ceilinged basement, where I have stuck up a bunch of inexpensive acoustic treatment.

An open floorplan with vaulted ceilings is a nice base for accoustics. The biggest concern would be that tile floor. I'd put down one or more thick, heavy rugs right in front of the mains and/or halfway between the mains and primary listening position. Put the mains close to the middle of a wall, or in a corner at a 45 angle.

As others have reported, I also get really nice 3-d staging, but I'm not sure how much of that is due to the amp or the mains. I would expect you'd get more of that sense from a tube amp than preamp.

The biggest potential issues with tube amps is that they are not efficient and tubes burn out. As I understand, tube amps can't put out as much power as a modern solid state. That could make it harder to fill the space of a large open-concept room.

When tubes burn out, it can be a PITA. I've had two burn out this year. Both cases I lose most of a channel. Then I have to check which of the fuses for that channel blew. Then look up the wiring diagram to figure out which bank of tubes that fuse is connected to. Replace fuse and all the tubes, setting aside the old tubes. Then replace the new tubes with old ones one after another until the fuse blows again. Then discard the tube that caused the fuse to blow, replace the fuse again, and replace the remaining old tubes.

Tubes are generally pricey and tough to find since there isn't much call for them anymore. I actually bought a whole spare set on EBay purely because they were being sold cheap, and I could keep them as spares.

My setup is: Spectral DMC-10 solid preamp; into a Rythmik F12G sub, with the crossover set at 100hz; passing to a Transcendent T16 OTL tube amp - affectionately dubbed 'The Space Heater' on account of a whopping 22 tubes; running a set of LS3/5a's as my mains.

pilotbraden said:

Yes I have one. Call me and we can set something up. I'm thinking long term loan. I still have the same phone number.

I'll call you in a few days. I'm currently about 1,400 miles away, and in the hospital. 

I just got back to cell service. I hope you are on the mend. 

pilotbraden said:

I just got back to cell service. I hope you are on the mend. 

Still in the hospital. Day 6 and counting. 

I'm gonna blaspheme here and say there may be a middle ground providing the best of both worlds.  I own a mid-'70s McIntosh MC 250, the first solid-state product produced by them.  However, the power transistors are not direct-coupled to the speaker outputs.  They run into large output transformers just like a tube amp with different taps based on speaker impedance.  The mids and highs are more "tube-y," with much of the euphonic coloration we all know and love.  However, the bass -3db point is about 3Hz.  Regarding the soundstage, I find a well-designed speaker system has far more to do with the depth and breadth of the stereo image than anything else.  Usually, good drivers in a two-way setup utilizing a well-matched 6db-per-octave slope crossover avoids many of the phase shifts responsible for reducing and flattening the image.  Source material also plays a key role of course.

I got part way into tubes & built a tube pre-amp kit from Doc Bottlehead. Was a great project. I used it with a Carver C220 amp.  The sound was still amazing even though only the pre-amp was tubes. 
I had friends that were way, way too far into tube amps, audio gear &  listening rooms. 
I also made my own patch cords using some very expensive hi tech cables & gold connectors. It all makes a big difference & contributes to better audio. 

mdshaw said:

I got part way into tubes & built a tube pre-amp kit from Doc Bottlehead. Was a great project. I used it with a Carver C220 amp.  The sound was still amazing even though only the pre-amp was tubes. 

Oftentimes, that's enough, especially with stringed instruments.

In reply to Jerry From LA :

Yes it was really amazing. Then I rebuilt a nice turntable - don't remember the brand. Got a really high end cartridge & all the accessories. The vinyl sounded amazing. 
Tis a very slippery slope because there is always room for better sound. 
If you can resist the urge to chase the audio dragon you will do well. 
I just remembered also listening to our nice tube equipment very late at night in the wee hours. Not sure what it is but it sounds even better. I did some reading years ago after noticing this & wasn't sure if what I was hearing was even real or just perceived.  It turns out that there are theories that late at night, there is less power "noise" & nice audio equipment performs just a bit better.