Going off The Grid

SVreX wrote: OK, I'm confused. The average US home uses between 1kW-hour and 2 kW-hours per hour. 5kW-hour should be about sufficient for (well managed) peak loads. Your 3kW system is $5250, but you are suggesting $50-$75K for a "grassroots" system. HUH? Why would you need 10-15 times the amount that can be generated for $5250? Why would you spend the ENTIRE cost of a house for a "grassroots" electrical system? Did you add a digit???

Stress the well managed load part. If you have an electric water heater, it is 4500 watts alone. So with a 5K generator, you can't heat water and cook at the same time unless you use gas or have a larger gen-set. Another problem is motor start load. My air compressor is 2 hp. running load is about 2000w. Starting wattage is close to 7000w. If you want to heat water and start and run you air compressor that puts your surge load over 11000w. Grid tie is the way to go. That way you use the grid as your battery. You dump your 5000 watts in to it when you don't need it. When you need that 11000 watts, the meter turns the other way until you heavy loads drop. Then you go back to selling.

SVreX wrote:

Jensenman wrote: The 'low head' turbines on that page I referenced capable of powering a whole house were actually very reasonably priced, IMHO. For instance a 3kW system is $5250.00 and there are larger ones available, or they can be 'stacked'. Of course they don't include the penstock, dam, etc. I see no reason a system big enough for an average house couldn't be 'grassroots built' for about $50-$75K. Assuming, of course, that you already have a piece of property with a stream capable of powering the thing.

OK, I'm confused. The average US home uses between 1kW-hour and 2 kW-hours per hour. 5kW-hour should be about sufficient for (well managed) peak loads. Your 3kW system is $5250, but you are suggesting $50-$75K for a "grassroots" system. HUH? Why would you need 10-15 times the amount that can be generated for $5250? Why would you spend the ENTIRE cost of a house for a "grassroots" electrical system? Did you add a digit???

I'm figuring the cost for a small earth dam to achieve ~12 foot head (that's low end cost if everything's perfect, it could be higher if the site is not ideal), a concrete or steel tailrace to funnel water to the penstock, a concrete pad and building to house the turbine and gennie, then a sluiceway to get water back to the stream. Then there's wiring to the house, an auto transfer switch to push power back into the grid, etc. I'm also figuring at least 10 kW (15kW would be better but might invlove a much larger dam etc) for the reasons Toyman mentioned. In the middle of summer the A/C is going to run a LOT and every time that sucker fires up there's a threefold jump in power usage for a moment. Now if the A/C, refrigerator, air compressor and my plasma cutter all fire off at the same time it would be nice to have the extra capacity.

The best thing about this whole system is that during my off peak times (like all day while I was at work) if the thing is running wide open it would be making me money as it pumps power back into the electrical grid, way more than a solar setup. it might not make enough to pay for itself, but there's another angle: if there's an ice storm or similar now I have heat, lights, cold beer, TV and the stuff in the refrigerator doesn't spoil. Hard to put a price on that.

All that in your "grassroots" system.

Nice!

I've lived (part time) in my cabin for 3 years with NO electricity.

Only downside?

Downstream neighbors may complain your stealing their ability to do the same thing.

Which is why there is a permitting process. it's also possible for A to build a small dam, power his place, then B buids a dam further downstream and powers HIS place. Or even several neighbors get together, build a sizeable dam on a common area and build a hydro plant to serve all their houses.

Yeah, my version of grassroots involves some creature comforts. I'd hate to be snowed in and not be able to watch my Grand Prix, LeMans, Dust to Glory, Mad Max and assorted autocross/hillclimb in car video DVD's while sipping some cool suds.

There's a lot of places you can't just build dams wherever you want. North GA is pretty tough (trout streams)

You guys ever consider going pnuematic? For a couple thousand years, compressed air has been generated with water and a pipe. If you have enough of a fall, you can get a good supply of compressed air, then run that through an air motor and run your alternator off of that. And, you can run your air tools without having to run a 4HP motor to get the air for them. HF used to sell an air motor of around a HP or so. They had an air powered table saw that used it.

We use air motors/ pumps/ etc. all the time at work.

spitfirebill wrote: ... its all about the head.

He said head.

Isn't is always all about the head?

Seriously though, if you haven't investigated Home Power magazine, you are really missing out. They're a bi-monthly (sound familiar?) magazine focused on this sort of thing. Good explanations, diagrams etc. Well worth the price of admission although they don't have a $100 10 year subscription yet. They actually had a great article about microhydro a few months back with a unit in Thailand. Apparently you can buy the generators cheap. I though am really interested in the water wheel idea since most places don't have the aforementioned head to make a traditional hydro system work.

UPDATE; my house closes oct 8th. everything including vehicles going into storage. Starting to look at prperties in earnest now. I thought my house would sell quickly (wrong) had to cut asking price from 324 to 289, got a little less than that...upside is that there are some killer deals out there...

Ok, you mentioned wood burning stove for heat. Couple other ideas, what about geothermal for heating and cooling? As an additional generating capacity, what about micro-wind? These are all ideas I'd like to do some day. My ideal would be 15 or 20 miles out of a decent sized town or mid-size city. Far enough out to not be in suburbia yet close enough to not have an extra long commute. Hay farm as a tax break / rally-x site would be a bonus too.