Has anyone ever asked this question before????

Just in case my original post gets lost.... See post below

So I was watching a Trans Am race from 1994 tonight (this race http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uGasRph2Es Great comeback by Tommy Kendall BTW) where the top 5 of 6 crashed out on the last lap after the second place car, blew its engine in a big way oiling the hell out of the track..

Then I got thinking.

What if the leader had say a 5 lap lead in a distance, not timed race.

Then, after the last lap sign or white flag was waved, the leader crashed out of the race... Would the last lap sign or white flag be displayed again 4 laps later for the new leader???

What if you were the second place car saw the Last lap signal completed the lap (but never saw the leader crash out), and figured race over??? Could the 3rd place car pass that car and win the race?? It seems to me, the leader when the last lap signal was given, didn't complete the race distance, therefore the race isn't over.. Also the last lap signal should be withdrawn and the race should continue until the second place car begins it's last lap...

Am I wrong???

Just in case my original post gets lost.... See post below

So I was watching a Trans Am race from 1994 tonight (this race http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uGasRph2Es Great comeback by Tommy Kendall BTW) where the top 5 of 6 crashed out on the last lap after the second place car, blew its engine in a big way oiling the hell out of the track..

Then I got thinking.

What if the leader had say a 5 lap lead in a distance, not timed race.

Then, after the last lap sign or white flag was waved, the leader crashed out of the race... Would the last lap sign or white flag be displayed again 4 laps later for the new leader???

What if you were the second place car saw the Last lap signal completed the lap (but never saw the leader crash out), and figured race over??? Could the 3rd place car pass that car and win the race?? It seems to me, the leader when the last lap signal was given, didn't complete the race distance, therefore the race isn't over.. Also the last lap signal should be withdrawn and the race should continue until the second place car begins it's last lap...

actually yes, i believe you just asked it

sorry i have nothing useful to add

WilberM3 wrote: actually yes, i believe you just asked itsorry i have nothing useful to add

I posted it twice because of the bug (since the website relaunch) that seems to randomly delete the initial post on a thread.. It was easier to purposely double post than retyping the whole message...

I don't know if the rules are different for trans am but i hd been told that in NASCAR the lap counter would go back to whoever became the leader. I forget when it happened but I had heard it discussed years ago.

Doesn't the white flag get displayed for everyone so everyone knows its the last lap?

but if the leader (by several laps) doesn't make it to the finish line, it wouldn't be the last lap would it ?

Appleseed wrote: Doesn't the white flag get displayed for everyone so everyone knows its the last lap?

I'm pretty sure once the white flag is out it stays out. I can't picture them pulling the white flag like that at the daytona 24. I would assume the race would finish under caution once everyone got the white/yellow and then the checkered/yellow.

In NASCAR, once the white flag is out, if the yellow comes out the race stops immediately.

The last lap has been established by the white flag. What flag could you wave to retract the white? Besides, anything else would be carnage.

Related: If the guy who is leading by 5 laps crashes after the white flag, does he still win the race, or does he have to take the checkers to be classed a finisher?

You're not finished until you get a checker. The white doesn't signal the end of the race, it signals the almost-end. So if you're racing and decide you're done one lap after the white, you could be quite disappointed.

Other than timed endurance races, the winner is usually defined as the first car to complete a given distance. To win, you still have to complete that distance even if someone else got close first.

Anti-stance wrote:

Appleseed wrote: Doesn't the white flag get displayed for everyone so everyone knows its the last lap?

I'm pretty sure once the white flag is out it stays out. I can't picture them pulling the white flag like that at the daytona 24. I would assume the race would finish under caution once everyone got the white/yellow and then the checkered/yellow. In NASCAR, once the white flag is out, if the yellow comes out the race stops immediately.

A 24 hour race would be done because it ends at a set time but a race measured by distance wouldn't because the winner hasn't traveled that distance. Ending a NASCAR race as soon as a yellow comes out is also a fairly new development. Up until a few years ago they would always race back to the line.

We almost had this happen to us in a Lemons race. We were leading by 3 laps. We took the white flag and the car quit on the back straight. The 2nd place car caught us for a lap (while the car was parked). We were not sure how the race would be scored because it is a timed event.

It was complicated, because they were waiting for our car to cross the line for the checkered.

Our car eventually started again and we did cross the line (with 2nd place on the same lap!).

I am not sure what they would have done if our car had not started. Technically, we were still in first place when the race should have been over.

Seems as if the white flag designates one lap to go, the next car to take the checker would be the winner even if he did not complete the designated distance. Right or wrong ?

In reply to iceracer:

That's my understanding.

Most endurance races have a maximum time, so ever if the distance isn't met, the event can time out and the car that completed the most laps is the winner.

Wally wrote:

Anti-stance wrote:

Appleseed wrote: Doesn't the white flag get displayed for everyone so everyone knows its the last lap?

I'm pretty sure once the white flag is out it stays out. I can't picture them pulling the white flag like that at the daytona 24. I would assume the race would finish under caution once everyone got the white/yellow and then the checkered/yellow. In NASCAR, once the white flag is out, if the yellow comes out the race stops immediately.

A 24 hour race would be done because it ends at a set time but a race measured by distance wouldn't because the winner hasn't traveled that distance. Ending a NASCAR race as soon as a yellow comes out is also a fairly new development. Up until a few years ago they would always race back to the line.

Damn, you're right about the timed verses distance thing. I still just can't imagine at an indycar race that they would have a way to retract the white flag once its waved.

Think about the first car that crosses the start/finish line behind the race leader, if he gets the white flag before the leader crashes?

Hell, what about at Petit Le Mans that historically had gone the distance? Say a P1 car gets the white flag and the leading GT car gets the same white flag. The P1 puts it in the kitty litter at 10A but the GT crosses the start finish? What would happen then? What would the start/finish flagger be told to do? GT cars almost never complete the distance.

As far as NASCAR, I know that is recent because it was too dangerous to have cars racing back to the yellow/checkered. Hell a normal caution they used to race back to the start/finished for the yellow flag.

If you're five laps ahead of the pack when you get the white flag, don't do something stupid and crash out.

A bigger question is what kind of moron do you have to be to push yourself hard enough to crash on the last lap with a five lap lead!?

In reply to itsarebuild:

Sometimes E36 M3 happens.

itsarebuild wrote: A bigger question is what kind of moron do you have to be to push yourself hard enough to crash on the last lap with a five lap lead!?

Well, I could see someone running full out he whole race, seeing the white flag and knowing they were ahead, they decide to take it easy. Of course, they have been racing full out for hours before doing the exact same things and they just massively screwed with the rhythm they setup...

... kind of like how football teams go "defensive" when they are ahead, rather then just running the defense that had been shutting down the other team the entire game!

the race goes until the the first car finishes the required number of laps, and it might not be the car that initially takes the white flag regardless of how many laps that car had on the rest of the field.

Anti-stance wrote:

Appleseed wrote: Doesn't the white flag get displayed for everyone so everyone knows its the last lap?

I'm pretty sure once the white flag is out it stays out. I can't picture them pulling the white flag like that at the daytona 24. I would assume the race would finish under caution once everyone got the white/yellow and then the checkered/yellow. In NASCAR, once the white flag is out, if the yellow comes out the race stops immediately.

the Daytona 24 is a timed race .. so even if the leader didn't make it back around the second place car, or third place …etc .. the race would be over …

but if it was a required number of laps … and the leader had multiple lap lead ???

Wally wrote:

Anti-stance wrote:

Appleseed wrote: Doesn't the white flag get displayed for everyone so everyone knows its the last lap?

I'm pretty sure once the white flag is out it stays out. I can't picture them pulling the white flag like that at the daytona 24. I would assume the race would finish under caution once everyone got the white/yellow and then the checkered/yellow. In NASCAR, once the white flag is out, if the yellow comes out the race stops immediately.

A 24 hour race would be done because it ends at a set time but a race measured by distance wouldn't because the winner hasn't traveled that distance. Ending a NASCAR race as soon as a yellow comes out is also a fairly new development. Up until a few years ago they would always race back to the line.

and they can do that because at least one other car is on the lead lap … if the leader had multiple laps lead …??? they may be under caution, but I can't imagine the race ending 1 lap after the white, if that leader didn't make it back to the finish

and it wouldn't have to be a wreck … run out of gas … just able to coast to pit lane, but not able to coast far enough to cross the s/f line

Situations like this will frequently be addressed in drivers meetings with the statement "race to the checker." While a white flag may be shown, the race for any particular car is not over until that car crosses the line under a checkered flag.

jg

Anti-stance wrote: Damn, you're right about the timed verses distance thing. I still just can't imagine at an indycar race that they would have a way to retract the white flag once its waved. Think about the first car that crosses the start/finish line behind the race leader, if he gets the white flag before the leader crashes?

If you are in second a few laps down make sure the leader finishes. If you suddenly have a chance to win and you're not paying attention you don't deserve the win.

The white flag was displayed for the car on the lead lap. They would just let the race continue and throw the flag again when the next car reached the next to last lap.

Follow up question. Same scenario as above.. Since the leader never came back around to get the checkered flag; would the last lap board, or white flag continue to be displayed for the next 4 laps. The leader still could conceivably finish, the race as "wvumtnbkr" mentioned...

Also check this out... Damn that sucks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iwnnE12HCM