Health Care Law is a tax

Gasoline wrote: Now (post SC vote): Thoughts on the November election.....?

I think Obama's first lines in the first Presidential debate should be something like- "First off I would like to give credit where credit is due. Thanks to Romney for designing a health care system that the Affordable Health Care Act is designed around. Thanks for the idea"

Knurled wrote:

ThePhranc wrote: The government now has the power to force people to buy things if they want it or not.

Does your state require you to have auto insurance?

Not before today, but as of tomorrow it is possible after this decision

Gasoline wrote: Now (post SC vote): Thoughts on the November election.....?

Zombies maybe? Just not as many I hear.

Otto Maddox wrote: You guys are talking like health care has been socialized and the government runs it now.

This is just the preliminary manipulation to make that possible later. Once this "reform" E36 M3s the bed, which it inevitably will, then the "not a penalty" tax already has people softened up for redistribution, and the carefully-engineered "healthcare crisis" will justify the nationalization of the health care system. And then they get what they really have been aiming for all along - socialized medicine and more government control of the citizenry.

Cone_Junky wrote:

Gasoline wrote: Now (post SC vote): Thoughts on the November election.....?

I think Obama's first lines in the first Presidential debate should be something like- "First off I would like to give credit where credit is due. Thanks to Romney for designing a health care system that the Affordable Health Care Act is designed around. Thanks for the idea"

HA!

I haven't read the bill, and even if I did I'm sure I wouldn't understand all the implications and legalese contained within.

What I do know is this:

Every other developed country in the world provides health care for it's citizens.

Americans pay more for their healthcare than ANY OTHER COUNTRY in the world.

Americans do not receive the best heath care in the world--- we currently rank 37th

Like I said, I haven't read the entire bill, so I don't know how much crap the politicians were able to cram in there. (I'm sure there is plenty) What I do know is that our current system is flawed, and improvements need to be made. I'm not saying this is a good fix, but at least we are trying something instead of sticking with an obviously flawed status quo.

Joe Gearin wrote: I haven't read the bill, and even if I did I'm sure I wouldn't understand all the implications and legalese contained within. What I do know is this: Every other developed country in the world provides health care for it's citizens. Americans pay more for their healthcare than ANY OTHER COUNTRY in the world. Americans do not receive the best heath care in the world--- we currently rank 37th Like I said, I haven't read the entire bill, so I don't know how much crap the politicians were able to cram in there. (I'm sure there is plenty) What I do know is that our current system is flawed, and improvements need to be made. I'm not saying this is a good fix, but at least we are trying something instead of sticking with an obviously flawed status quo.

Ready for why we pay more for not the best care?

Advertisements.

Duke wrote:

Otto Maddox wrote: You guys are talking like health care has been socialized and the government runs it now.

This is just the preliminary manipulation to make that possible later. Once this "reform" E36 M3s the bed, which it inevitably will, then the "not a penalty" tax already has people softened up for redistribution, and the carefully-engineered "healthcare crisis" will justify the nationalization of the health care system. And then they get what they really have been aiming for all along - socialized medicine and more government control of the citizenry.

Well yeah, that is no secret. The republicans came up with the current plan to combat the democrat's socialized medicine plan. The democrats took the republican plan once they realized socialized medicine was a non-starter. Once the democrats liked the republican plan, the republicans dropped it like a hot potato. Did everyone forget that already?

If you think the problem is the cost of health care, what is the solution to that?

We pay Nurses $8.00hr and Doctors $15hr?

We produce medical equipment in China (most of it is) and skip the quality control?

We run hospitals out of tents?

That's the problem, you either pay alot of money for private health care that has its problems, or you pay a lot of taxes for public health care that has lots of problems.

The only way the system will be perfect is if you can take a pill to cure cancer, fix broken bones, or cure mental or physical disabilities.

We could fix the health care system completely and we'd still spend millions of dollars in taxes covering people who are obese, mentally disabled, or physically disabled from birth.

PHeller wrote: If you think the problem is the cost of health care, what is the solution to that? We pay Nurses $8.00hr and Doctors $15hr? We produce medical equipment in China (most of it is) and skip the quality control? We run hospitals out of tents? That's the problem, you either pay alot of money for private health care that has its problems, or you pay a lot of taxes for public health care that has lots of problems. The only way the system will be perfect is if you can take a pill to cure cancer, fix broken bones, or cure mental or physical disabilities. We could fix the health care system completely and we'd still spend millions of dollars in taxes covering people who are obese, mentally disabled, or physically disabled from birth.

Advertisements. This is one of the ONLY countries in the world in which it's legal to advertise your drugs.

When you go to the hospital, you're paying for your services, their new bamboo floor and aquarium, and their hundreds of billboards, tv, and radio ads they've been spamming for the last two months.

This is true. Hospitals do seem a little too pleasent these days.

In Mother Russia, gurney is for surgery, gurney is for bed, and gurney is for dead.

Gasoline wrote: Now (post SC vote): Thoughts on the November election.....?

Well, hopefully people remember all of the Obama and Pelosi statements about this "not being a tax" from months ago and realize they're being played. (not that the other side isn't playing them too)

I can see it swinging Romney's way, because even if Obama says, "I got the idea from Romney", people will think, "well, at least Romney had the brains and cajones to admit it doesn't work."

Joe Gearin wrote: Americans do not receive the best heath care in the world--- we currently rank 37th

How is that quantified?

You can't blame our life expectancy/mortality rate on our quality, when we are the fattest, unhealthiest nation in the world, and we count our mortality rates for newborns much differently.

PHeller wrote: That's the problem, you either pay alot of money for private health care that has its problems, or you pay a lot of taxes for public health care that has lots of problems.

Sorry bubba, it's not the actual health care that's so expensive, it's all of the other crap. The thousands of well paid administrators it takes to bill an insurer, the accountants to collect payment, the medical receptionists to collect the insurance information from the patients, etc, etc. Not to mention all of the advertising (as Ben mentioned, we are the only place where drug advertising is legal), the "luxuries" of the hospital (seriously, flat-screen HDTV's in every room? Marble counters and wood floors? Really?!?), and the lawyers to sue everybody after the insurer doesn't pay.

Cone_Junky wrote:

Gasoline wrote: Now (post SC vote): Thoughts on the November election.....?

I think Obama's first lines in the first Presidential debate should be something like- "First off I would like to give credit where credit is due. Thanks to Romney for designing a health care system that the Affordable Health Care Act is designed around. Thanks for the idea"

So what's with the extra 2,000+ pages?

So what your saying is, health care providers need to be regulated in order to control their costs.

Isn't that just as bad as taxing everyone?

You either regulate the market or regulate the consumer.

Javelin wrote:

PHeller wrote: That's the problem, you either pay alot of money for private health care that has its problems, or you pay a lot of taxes for public health care that has lots of problems.

Sorry bubba, it's not the actual *health care* that's so expensive, it's all of the other crap. The thousands of well paid administrators it takes to bill an insurer, the accountants to collect payment, the medical receptionists to collect the insurance information from the patients, etc, etc. Not to mention all of the advertising (as Ben mentioned, we are the only place where drug advertising is legal), the "luxuries" of the hospital (seriously, flat-screen HDTV's in every room? Marble counters and wood floors? Really?!?), and the lawyers to sue everybody after the insurer doesn't pay.

Javelin,

I hate to argue with you, but I am currently surrounded with piles of hospital financial statements and I can tell you that the costs you mention aren't big drivers in the overall cost of healthcare.

Joe Gearin wrote: Americans pay more for their healthcare than ANY OTHER COUNTRY in the world.

This bill isn't necessarily going to fix that. The individual mandate certainly will not fix that.

Joe Gearin wrote: Americans pay more for their healthcare than ANY OTHER COUNTRY in the world.

That's because we subsidize R&D for new techniques and drugs for everyone else in the world.

NINJA EDIT: You want a fix? Make the rest of the planet pay their fair share. I know this first hand.

My kid has asthma. ADVAIR (the real thing) is the ONLY maintenance inhaler that helps her, the generics are useless. Real ADVAIR here in the States is $202.00 for a 100/50 60 dose container. Exact same thing in Canada? $47.00.

So what that means is we here in the States are paying the R&D costs for everyone else on the planet. We pay your drug R&D, clean up after your natural disasters, get rid of your dictators when you start whining and in return you call us the Great Satan.

z31maniac wrote:

Joe Gearin wrote: Americans do not receive the best heath care in the world--- we currently rank 37th

How is that quantified? You can't blame our life expectancy/mortality rate on our quality, when we are the fattest, unhealthiest nation in the world, and we count our mortality rates for newborns much differently.

Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems

and here:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/06/23/us-usa-healthcare-last-idUSTRE65M0SU20100623

differing opinion here: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125608054324397621.html

Otto Maddox wrote: Javelin, I hate to argue with you, but I am currently surrounded with piles of hospital financial statements and I can tell you that the costs you mention aren't big drivers in the overall cost of healthcare.

Overhead man, overhead. All of the stuff I mentioned is value-added into your bill. Do you really think that 15 minute consult cost $250? Hell no! The Dr got $50, the rest is the overhead!

Seriously, take your bill and Gizoogle the line items in Canada (or any other 1st-world, socialized health care country) then report back. Go ahead, I'll hold.

In reply to Javelin:

The target as set by Wall Street for hospital general and administrative costs is 4.5% of revenue. Go much over that and nobody will buy your stock.

If by overhead, you mean doctors need hospitals, equipment, nurses, etc... well, yes. Yes they do.

Otto Maddox wrote:

Javelin wrote:

PHeller wrote: That's the problem, you either pay alot of money for private health care that has its problems, or you pay a lot of taxes for public health care that has lots of problems.

Sorry bubba, it's not the actual *health care* that's so expensive, it's all of the other crap. The thousands of well paid administrators it takes to bill an insurer, the accountants to collect payment, the medical receptionists to collect the insurance information from the patients, etc, etc. Not to mention all of the advertising (as Ben mentioned, we are the only place where drug advertising is legal), the "luxuries" of the hospital (seriously, flat-screen HDTV's in every room? Marble counters and wood floors? Really?!?), and the lawyers to sue everybody after the insurer doesn't pay.

Javelin, I hate to argue with you, but I am currently surrounded with piles of hospital financial statements and I can tell you that the costs you mention aren't big drivers in the overall cost of healthcare.

I don't have the hard data to back it up, nor am i saying that those things are the majority, but they are a significant factor.

ESPECIALLY on the drug side.

I see hospital claims every day. They make me SICK.

Otto Maddox wrote: In reply to Javelin: The target as set by Wall Street for hospital general and administrative costs is 4.5% of revenue. Go much over that and nobody will buy your stock. If by overhead, you mean doctors need hospitals, equipment, nurses, etc... well, yes. Yes they do.

Ok so on a 15 minute visit by the respiratory specialist during an inpatient stay, the specialist is paid $334.50 of the $350 charged?

If that's true, i'm going back to school. But, it's not, so i won't.

In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac:

Well, it is a multi-layered problem. The hospitals pay for the drugs. There isn't necessarily a big mark-up on them by healthcare providers. I know a lot about medical practices, from one guy family practitioners up to publicly traded hospital companies. I don't know much about the internal workings or accounting of drug or insurance companies.