How dumb is government?

Today I am closing out a job I've worked in for 6 months.

First order of business was to get my CO- Certificate of Occupancy. It's the document that defines a project as complete, and frees final payments from lenders, etc.

So, I went to the government office building downtown. 5th floor. I stepped out of the elevator directly into the Building Department. A pleasant lady asked if she could help me. I said I was here for a CO. She asked me to sign in. There was no one else waiting.

OK. I scribbled my name on her clipboard (my signature is not too legible). No big deal. My name was the only name on the sheet.

Then she asked me to take a number. Hmmm. I thought it was a little odd since there was no one else there, but OK, I took a number. Before I had completely pulled my the number tag out of the machine, the lady at the next desk asked what the address was of the project, and started digging through a file cabinet. She was within ear shot, and heard everything I said, but I still had to pick a number. OK. But things were quick, and I never even sat down.

We finished our business, she handed me my CO, and I started to leave. Painless- that's good. But as the elevator door opened, she called me back to the check-in desk. "Sir, I need you to print your name on the sign-in sheet. We need to be able to read it, so we can call your name, if you had had to be seated".

Huh? Our business is done. I have my document. You didn't need to call my name, and I'm already leaving, but I have to come back and print my name so you can read it in case you had to call me 10 minutes ago??

Where do we find these people??

When I looked through my inspection reports, I found I had 27 passed inspection reports- no failures. This project was a commercial interior remodel- no structural work at all. But I had to have a government official come 27 separate times to tell me I was doing nothing wrong in order to complete the project.

I deal with this E36 M3 every day.

Your tax dollars hard at work.

Ben Stiller at airport

Once at our deli they were finishing up and I didn't take a number and two ladies walked in and grabbed numbers and I stood there like an idiot. I always learned to grab a number even if nobody is around.

How dumb is government? So dumb they put a man on the moon, the ISS into orbit and the LHC in the ground, all while keeping most countries from being Somalia. Any other questions?

(She probably has to follow a strict line-control protocol in which there's no exception for having only one person in the room. It's there to make sure people always get served in order of arrival no matter how forgetful an employee is or who's friends with who. You got through quickly, congrats!)

At a DMV type office in Texas once, my wife walked in. There was no one in line. She walked up to the people working there. They got upset and said she had to walk through the zig-zag maze of lines drawn on the floor first. That didn't go over very well.

Datsun310Guy wrote: Ben Stiller at airport

Good God...YES. I use that scene in analogies all the time, and no one remembers it. Its probably one of my favorite Stiller scenes ever.

The interesting thing about government is that what most people hate about government (bureaucracy) was put in place due to fears over the government being accountable to the people who they serve and who pay taxes. Not that I am advocating for widespread reduction of accountability, its just one of those "cake and eat it too" situations where we all wish there was a better solution.

but then sometimes you do have idiots in positions where they can't see past the text of a procedure and think being proficient in a job is only about strict adherence to a procedure. Can's see past to what is actually trying to be accomplished.

Instead of telling us it's dumb, you should ask why the policy is there in the first place. Then tell us why it's dumb.

One example of a good time period and nobody is there does not mean a policy is dumb. And then to point out that people are dumb because they are actually following the procedure that is laid out for them even though it's clear that in your once instance, bending the procedure to meet your personal needs/experience- well...

It's like Uber/Lyft vs. Taxis- where one wants to be a taxi without following all of the rules Taxi companies have to follow. It's never a bad thing to question regulations and procedures, but to quickly come to the conclusion that they are bad just because of one instance isn't a great idea, too.

My parents built a house, so I saw some of what Paul is speaking to. The irritating thing is the disparity. The house next door was a typical homebuilder and ours was self built. The inspector would come with his checklist and look over everything, take thirty minutes and sign his little pad thing, walk next door, wave, say "Hey Jim!" and sign the pad thing and walk off. Since he knew Jim, no inspection was necessary.

If I told you some of the things "Jim" was doing, you'd be amazed. The intent is to serve the people but the reality is that they make things harder for the individual with little to no benefit overall.

In reply to tuna55:

and with the way things go, that inspectors shortcut of procedure means that that form will go from something just needing a signature to something needing more complete documentation which will take over twice the time to do. Which is the responsibility of the next inspector who did nothing wrong.

Yeah, somebody came in once, waited two hours, and had people jump ahead, so they complained. Now the policy is everyone signs in and takes a number. That lady's supervisor is probably required to look over the sign in sheet every week. If there are names that aren't legible she probably has to hear about it, and maybe fill out a form, because that is another policy. It sucks sometimes, but such is life.

There's probably someone above her that will walk in every so often and question how she issued the certificate to someone that didn't sign the clipboard and take a number. Rather than accept her saying there was no line they will assume there was some sort of shenanigans because of this breach in protocol and start an investigation. You'd be amazed how many times an act of common sense can go sideways when you deal with people that have never worked outside the government.

I spent some time at the local Social Security Office last year, dumb? Yes. They have rules that need to be applied regardless of the client list. Sign in, sign out, going through the zig zag, checking all the boxes, et al is a system of checks and balances to ensure all the bases are covered.

I'm not defending all of the above, but how stupid is it when you get home and there's a message on your answering machine saying your paperwork s invalid and you have to go back to sign something they forgot?

I like a system because it keeps the big machine running if you have a hangover or the flu.

Dan

tuna55 wrote: My parents built a house, so I saw some of what Paul is speaking to. The irritating thing is the disparity. The house next door was a typical homebuilder and ours was self built. The inspector would come with his checklist and look over everything, take thirty minutes and sign his little pad thing, walk next door, wave, say "Hey Jim!" and sign the pad thing and walk off. Since he knew Jim, no inspection was necessary. If I told you some of the things "Jim" was doing, you'd be amazed. The intent is to serve the people but the reality is that they make things harder for the individual with little to no benefit overall.

I think you are flipping that conclusions upside down. I would wager a LOT that the intent was to make guys like "Jim" follow the rules and make very good homes relative to the law. Not penalize the smaller group.

How it works out that "Jim" gets a pass is a better question to ask than why are your parents given the third degree.

Like any other regulation- building codes are there for a reason. Why is a fine question to ask- but for all parts of it.

914Driver wrote: I'm not defending all of the above, but how stupid is it when you get home and there's a message on your answering machine saying your paperwork s invalid and you have to go back to sign something they forgot?

Not as stupid as when you don't get that message and the problem comes back to bite you in the ass years later. Found that out when changing the engine number registered to my Corolla with the local DMV-equivalent. Apparently one letter was delivered to the right place but addressed wrong.

alfadriver wrote:

tuna55 wrote: My parents built a house, so I saw some of what Paul is speaking to. The irritating thing is the disparity. The house next door was a typical homebuilder and ours was self built. The inspector would come with his checklist and look over everything, take thirty minutes and sign his little pad thing, walk next door, wave, say "Hey Jim!" and sign the pad thing and walk off. Since he knew Jim, no inspection was necessary. If I told you some of the things "Jim" was doing, you'd be amazed. The intent is to serve the people but the reality is that they make things harder for the individual with little to no benefit overall.

I think you are flipping that conclusions upside down. I would wager a LOT that the intent was to make guys like "Jim" follow the rules and make very good homes relative to the law. Not penalize the smaller group. How it works out that "Jim" gets a pass is a better question to ask than why are your parents given the third degree. Like any other regulation- building codes are there for a reason. Why is a fine question to ask- but for all parts of it.

that's what I said!!

The intent was to make everyone safer because of people taking shortcuts. What happens in reality is that "Jim" gets a pass and the little guy gets screwed. (get the pun?)

SVreX wrote: Today I am closing out a job I've worked in for 6 months. First order of business was to get my CO- Certificate of Occupancy. It's the document that defines a project as complete, and frees final payments from lenders, etc. So, I went to the government office building downtown. 5th floor. I stepped out of the elevator directly into the Building Department. A pleasant lady asked if she could help me. I said I was here for a CO. She asked me to sign in. There was no one else waiting. OK. I scribbled my name on her clipboard (my signature is not too legible). No big deal. My name was the only name on the sheet. Then she asked me to take a number. Hmmm. I thought it was a little odd since there was no one else there, but OK, I took a number. Before I had completely pulled my the number tag out of the machine, the lady at the next desk asked what the address was of the project, and started digging through a file cabinet. She was within ear shot, and heard everything I said, but I still had to pick a number. OK. But things were quick, and I never even sat down. We finished our business, she handed me my CO, and I started to leave. Painless- that's good. But as the elevator door opened, she called me back to the check-in desk. "Sir, I need you to print your name on the sign-in sheet. We need to be able to read it, so we can call your name, if you had had to be seated". Huh? Our business is done. I have my document. You didn't need to call my name, and I'm already leaving, but I have to come back and print my name so you can read it in case you had to call me 10 minutes ago?? Where do we find these people?? When I looked through my inspection reports, I found I had 27 passed inspection reports- no failures. This project was a commercial interior remodel- no structural work at all. But I had to have a government official come 27 separate times to tell me I was doing nothing wrong in order to complete the project. I deal with this E36 M3 every day. Your tax dollars hard at work.

$20 someone complained and there is a posting that states everyone signs in legibly and must take a number. No exceptions.

The issues isn't how dumb government is, (the amusing thing about that question is it actually means how dumb is the electorate, but that is another conversation.) It is did we check all the boxes?

Did customer sign in to be able to call them up and to provide a ledger of the days work? Check.
Did customer take a number to correspond to sign in? Check.

EDIT: I take it as my brisk response before reading the others you understand what you went through has a reason.

In reply to tuna55:

I guess it depends on which little guy you were talking about- I was interpreting it as your parents getting screwed. And it seems as if you are interpreting it as the homeowners of "Jim" house are the ones getting screwed.

Someone is getting nailed, no doubt.

And to pile on a bit because I always try to look at the other side, it's also a paper trail. There's a process to come through the office and get your paperwork done that way. Perhaps, there were enough people greasing palms to get things done outside the norm that they needed to put a system in place to track it. If the number of documents handed out for that day matches the number of names on the list, then everything's fine. If not, something needs to be checked. Plus, your name should (in theory) match the info on the document, further making sure the process is followed. So, it should be legible.

The person asking you to print your name said it was in case they had called you, but I'm willing to bet that was more out of habit for what she always says. We've all been there when dealing with the public. You say a phrase often enough, it becomes an automatic response whether it makes sense or not.

It all comes down to the old adage. "This is why we can't have nice things." Silly rules, procedures, paperwork, etc are often the result of people abusing the system forcing inane rules to be applied.

(Edit: looks like I didn't type fast enough as the posts above have said something similar)

-Rob

And you had to go back and print your name because you know they will remember you when you go back.

Who are you calling dumb?

GameboyRMH wrote: How dumb is government? So dumb they put a man on the moon, the ISS into orbit and the LHC in the ground, all while keeping most countries from being Somalia. Any other questions? (She probably has to follow a strict line-control protocol in which there's no exception for having only one person in the room. It's there to make sure people always get served in order of arrival no matter how forgetful an employee is or who's friends with who. You got through quickly, congrats!)

So what's the point of a protocol that makes me come back from the elevator after I have already completed my business and print my name? How does that serve anyone?

Next time, I think I'll write "Jack the Ripper". I'll make sure to print it legibly, and sit quietly until they call it out loud.

Wall-e wrote: There's probably someone above her that will walk in every so often and question how she issued the certificate to someone that didn't sign the clipboard and take a number. Rather than accept her saying there was no line they will assume there was some sort of shenanigans because of this breach in protocol and start an investigation. You'd be amazed how many times an act of common sense can go sideways when you deal with people that have never worked outside the government.

Nope. Can't be that.

My name is not on the permit, and my company's name was not on the form. There is no correlation between the sign-in form and the work completed.

I expect beurocratic silliness when I have to do this stuff, so it's really not a big deal.

However, those of you who are defending Building Inspectors because you think they are providing a service that makes buildings safer are sadly mistaken. It's just not the case. Ever.

It seems possible to me that having the proper paperwork filled out thoroughly may be part of her job performance expectation. If it's going to get me in trouble, or affect my bottom line, you bet I'm going to make people do whatever is necessary to avoid making myself look bad to superiors.

If you know your signature is difficult to read, and you expect someone to read it at some point, why wouldn't you just print your name to begin with? Or slow down enough to make your signature legible?

SVreX wrote: So what's the point of a protocol that makes me come back from the elevator after I have already completed my business and print my name? How does that serve anyone? Next time, I think I'll write "Jack the Ripper". I'll make sure to print it legibly, and sit quietly until they call it out loud.

It keeps a paper trail to ensure that the protocol is being followed...that way the woman working the desk can't fudge the record to circumvent the system and play favorites with who gets served first.

Edit: Pretty much the same thing STM317 said...