I must be missing something. BMW?

Timeormoney wrote: Plus you will never get to feel the sticker shock of new plug wires with a Honda.

E36s don't have plug wires.

the M44 and M42 engines do.. and they are STILL expensive

Joe Gearin wrote: That said the only new BMW I like is the M3. New BMWs have become too laden with electronic gadetry, and now are disposable cars.

I agree with you. The last BMW I liked the Z4 coupe'. Now even that is gone, replaced with a new Z4 with a foldable hardtop.

the lack of gadgetry is what i love about my 318ti.. no iDrive (iAnything makes me itch) no climate control, no check function computer. The closest it comes is ABS and power locks and windows. Mine is even one of the last non-M Cars to have an LSD. It's simple, it's fun, and it's reliable..

Bobzilla wrote: +2. I'll take mycheapo dependable cars for a third the money instead.

It's a hell of a lot easier to make a BMW relaible than it is to make a Hyundai rewarding to drive.

I've got a 2003 E46 with a manual transmission and at 60k all I've had to spend money on is rotors, pads, and sensors all the way round, which was under $500 for all new high-quality parts total. Easily done myself in the parking lot during lunch, using the onboard toolkit.

Wear items like pads and rotors are cheaper for the BMW than they are for my wife's Acura, and under the hood it's absolutely no question which one I'd rather work on - BMW hands down.

The only problems I've had with the BMW - a bad HID headlight, a problem with the driver's door lock, and a problem with the sunroof - were all taken care of at no cost under the CPO warranty (with a free loaner car) and none have recurred. The door lock was a minor item and wouldn't have interfered with using the car at all, but it was covered so I got it fixed.

My wife's TSX lost an HID headlight as well - and although it was fixed (twice) under warranty, they had the car for 2 days each time and I got no loaner.

I like the TSX very much and it has functioned almost flawlessly, but I'm not convinced the overall cost of ownership is going to be any smaller. It was new, but I paid $5k more for it than I did for my CPO BMW with 25,000 on the clock.

For comparison, some will say there is none, but anyway. In 2000 I paid $15000 for my brand new Ford ZX2SR. 10 yrs later it has 76K miles on it, many very hard,ie: track days, ice racing. The only expense I had to pay to have done when it blew an AC hose. The only parts I have replaced are normal wear items, or caused by extreme driving.

zomby woof wrote: These kind of problems do not belong on car of that value. I don't care what the driving experience is.

So your idea of the ultimate vehicle is a Toyota HiLux? I think you're on the wrong form - that's grassroots, but not so much motorsports.

I also think you're setting yourself up for disappointment, because in my experience every car of considerable value is expensive to maintain.

Timeormoney wrote: But you are right, most honda's are more reliable; but I think most BMW's are more fun. Plus you will never get to feel the sticker shock of new plug wires with a Honda.

But how often do you need to replace the plug wires? They are expensive, but I have three BMWs right now (155k, 190k and 195k miles) with original plug wires still in good shape.

nderwater wrote:

zomby woof wrote: These kind of problems do not belong on car of that value. I don't care what the driving experience is.

So your idea of the ultimate vehicle is a Toyota HiLux? I think you're on the wrong form. I also think you're setting yourself up for disappointment, because in my experience *every* car of considerable value is expensive to maintain.

It doesn't matter what my idea of the ultimate car is. It has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with a premium vehicle at a premium price, with subpar reliability.

If by subpar reliability you're referring to faulty luxury amenities and interior annoyances, then I whole heartedly agree. Those issues are really grating. But if you mean reliability in terms of mechanical soundness and dependability, then I would not at all consider BMW's subpar - I'd say they were equal to or superior to equivalent to cars in their price range.

zomby woof wrote: It has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with a premium vehicle at a premium price, with subpar reliability.

Avoid Porsche, Lotus, Jag, Ferrari, Aston, Audi, BMW, Alfa, Volvo, Saab... well... pretty much everything. I volunteer take all the others - problems and all so you don't need to worry about it.

Seriously, BMW are reliable as stone. They just require more maintenance than the average Honda. They also give more performance. If it ain't your thing... its just not. Different strokes... but there is nothing inherently wrong with the product.

mad_machine wrote: the M44 and M42 engines do.. and they are STILL expensive

That's why you convert them to coil-on-plug.

My kit is in the mail as we speak.

"My old Toyota Corolla almost never needs servicing, so why does your old BMW - didn't it cost a lot more?"

A performance-tuned drivetrain consisting of lightweight, complex parts will require more frequent and expensive maintenance than a run-of-the-mill econobox engine. Think of it in terms of modifying an engine - the more power you're pulling from a mill, the more time and expense it requires to maintain.

The same is true of the suspension components. Who complains of ride degradation or loss of steering feel in an old beater when it was mediocre to begin with? On the other hand, as the struts and rubber in a finely tuned suspension degrade over time the effect is really noticeable.

The interior bits of economy cars are often really simple and made out of pretty durable materials. There aren't a lot of pieces, there isn't fine leather to crack and age, there's no wood veneer which weathers, there aren't a myrid of luxury controls to eventually become faulty.

If you're looking for a cheap, simple, no hassle car, then get an old Corolla. If you're looking for a great new, luxury performance car then re-mortgage the house and buy a BMW that's got a factory warranty. If you're looking for a fun and practical daily driver then get an old BMW, ignore the minor foibles of a used luxury car and maintain it yourself.

Clap clap clap!

Glad they invented penicillin

I think the key to getting along with anything mechanical is to understand compromise, car manufacturers must balance cost, reliability, performance, marketability, safety and a whole lot of other angles.

Yes, bmw's could come with a lifetime cooling system but it would either need to be built from some heavy material which would ruin the car or something light and obscenely expensive at which point nobody could afford to buy the car. Instead they compromised and used plastic, it's light weight and relatively inexpensive.

z31maniac wrote:

mad_machine wrote: the M44 and M42 engines do.. and they are STILL expensive

That's why you convert them to coil-on-plug. My kit is in the mail as we speak.

Megasquirts also work ;)

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Megasquirts also work ;)

That's what she said.

MegaSquirt will most likely happen next year.

I'm looking to put together a bored/stroked M42 over the winter with some hot cams and higher comp pistons. Get it broken in on a conservative tune, then pull install MS!

I'd like to clarify something in my previous post. I don't dislike German cars at all, even if it came off that way. If fact, they are awesome driving machines. But when it comes to a DD I want something that's a reliable tool because of what I need it to do. Back when that wasn't important, my usual DD's were Triumphs, Alfas and Fiats.

For a fun car, it doesn't matter at all. In fact, I will own a Z4 M Coupe before too much longer if I can convince the wife that the earth will stop rotating if we don't put exactly that much German machined material in the garage!

.

nderwater wrote: "My old Toyota Corolla almost never needs servicing, so why does your old BMW - didn't it cost a lot more?" A performance-tuned drivetrain consisting of lightweight, complex parts will require more frequent and expensive maintenance than a run-of-the-mill econobox engine. Think of it in terms of modifying an engine - the more power you're pulling from a mill, the more time and expense it requires to maintain.

The S2000 kinda makes this argument null-and-void.

High performance, high-tech engineering, reliable as an econobox.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

Timeormoney wrote: Plus you will never get to feel the sticker shock of new plug wires with a Honda.

E36s don't have plug wires.

Roger that, coil pack sticker shock

racerdave600 wrote: I'd like to clarify something in my previous post. I don't dislike German cars at all, even if it came off that way. If fact, they are awesome driving machines. But when it comes to a DD I want something that's a reliable tool because of what I need it to do. Back when that wasn't important, my usual DD's were Triumphs, Alfas and Fiats. For a fun car, it doesn't matter at all. In fact, I will own a Z4 M Coupe before too much longer if I can convince the wife that the earth will stop rotating if we don't put exactly that much German machined material in the garage! .

For a reliable DD, just go Honda/Acura and call it day. Toyota also, but make sure you can shift into Neutral to be safe :)

BTW, this is from a guy who uses an 87 M6 as a daily.

Timeormoney wrote:

racerdave600 wrote: I'd like to clarify something in my previous post. I don't dislike German cars at all, even if it came off that way. If fact, they are awesome driving machines. But when it comes to a DD I want something that's a reliable tool because of what I need it to do. Back when that wasn't important, my usual DD's were Triumphs, Alfas and Fiats. For a fun car, it doesn't matter at all. In fact, I will own a Z4 M Coupe before too much longer if I can convince the wife that the earth will stop rotating if we don't put exactly that much German machined material in the garage! .

For a reliable DD, just go Honda/Acura and call it day. Toyota also, but make sure you can shift into Neutral to be safe :) BTW, this is from a guy who uses an 87 M6 as a daily.

Unfortunately my wife thinks I need another BMW, but what I'd really like to have is an M45, or, can't believe I'm saying this, a CTS-V

This is what I have been looking at.

http://charlotte.craigslist.org/ctd/1608620284.html

Or something similar. At 97K how much will need to be done to it. Apparently suspension bushings and cooling system. Any other systems that are prone to problems at 100K

Timeormoney wrote: Toyota also, but make sure you can shift into Neutral to be safe :)

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/york-runaway-prius-case-driver-error/story?id=10138656

Or just take your foot off the gas and use the brake.

Joe Gearin wrote: That said the only new BMW I like is the M3. New BMWs have become too laden with electronic gadetry, and now are disposable cars.

I agree. I was so hoping that the 1 series could possibly be a reincarnation of the 2002.

After reading that, I think I need to figure out what I was smoking