I want to move, just not sure where to...

On Pittsburgh: one thing I've noticed in differences between West and East is exemplified in Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh embraces it's grit. As a result, people appreciate "making due with what you've got". "Thrifting" (shopping for old stuff made in USA that is still high quality) is really popular in Pittsburgh, especially among younger people. Pittsburgh is strangely satisfied with just about everything. Maybe that's a product of just how happy people are to live there. 

That being said, it's still got the Northeast Mud that comes in October and stays till May. This is due in part to its lack of sun. Part of the reason I'm so resistant to go back to the Northeast. Here in Flagstaff we get a few feet of snow, it takes a few weeks to melt, and then it's gone for the rest of the year. Monsoons might bring back the mud, but they help with the heat. 

Part of what makes the Mid-Atlantic area of the Northeast so great for so many people is that all the towns are relatively similar. The landscape is relatively similar. It's pretty much "pick your city and be a dick about it". I have traveled and spent a good deal of time in nearly every city in Pennsylvania, Maryland, Southern NY, Eastern Ohio. Not one of them stands out aside from Baltimore (port town), Wilkesbarre-Scranton (in a valley surrounded by mountains), or Pittsburgh (three rivers, lots of mountains). I have a connection to Amish Country and Lancaster County, but that's only because I've got friends and family there. I miss PA Dutch food and bargain hunting at farmers markets, but the landscape itself bores the hell out of me. 

Best way of putting it is this: look on Google Maps: I want to live someplace surrounded by green (national or state forest) or blue (ocean or lakes). Preferably somewhere south of the 39th  parrallel. 

In reply to tb :

Reno has connections from most of the major airlines (United, American, Delta, Southwest) plus Alaska, JetBlue and IIRC, Frontier.

The problem is more that one ends up having to pick an airline based on where one wants to go, and then change planes a couple of times.

From what I remember, cost of living is about average for the US - I think the last survey I saw put it around 101% of average.

On a related note, I recently had a good conversation with a buddy of mine who was starting his new life as a Dentist. He was working his first couple of years in mid-state New York, but wanted to start scoping out investment opportunities. Someplace where he could get in on the leading edge of the next hippest town, buy a few rental properties, become involved in the community, but still get joy from a diverse public lands and temperate climate.

We talked about places that we know are already hip: San Diego, LA, San Fran, San Louis Obispo, Asheville, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Boulder, Salt Lake, Portland, Bend, etc...

The thing is, every one of those cities is past the point of reasonable return on investment (with the exception of Pittsburgh). The only other places left are places where you've gotta be resistant to the cold, or places where flat land (humidity or retirees) doesn't bother you. 

I think Southern Colorado (Pueblo), Inland CA/OR, Southern Appalachia and Puerto Rico will be the major growth areas of the next decade.

Inland OR seems to be seeing a bit of a migration, a whole bunch of people amongst my wife's acquaintances are looking into moving there.

Inland CA - I'm not a big fan of the central valley. Sacramento has a decent sized airport but no idea how good the connections are. Further North it gets more beautiful but you only get small airports.

Mndsm said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Oh trust me I know. Born and raised Minnesotan.  I looked at winter driving as a sport. I often looked upon the roads with a glint of challenge in my eye. But as dusk drew on my youth and winter became more about damn I need to dig the car out and take the kid to school and blah blah blah, it lost its appeal. Shovelling became a chore, not an exit to fun. It's gotten to the point where I can't stand snow. I'll miss the e brake corners and ice racing and watching 75k land rovers flounder helplessly as I plow though without a second thought in whatever 350$ beater that happened to fall within my reach, but man, I'm over it. I like the beach. The water calms me. I sink like a berkeleying rock, but I am a peaceful rock. 

That's where I'm at now (except my $350 beaters have cost me just a tad bit more lol). Regarding the last part of your statement I am about 8-10 years from being able to say what your saying.

Yes I've embraced winter almost every usual MN outdoor winter activity I've done most. It's in the eye of the beholder if this is one's proverbial cup of tea. It is a good place to raise children imo. I'm ready now for warm winters and no snow and ice covered roads but  just a few more years I can make it.

If it weren't for the winters here, based on what I've read, MN would likely be on the OP's list.

tb said:

I am definitely interested in car specific info if it is important. I think that moving to CA means both of my modified cars would be in trouble and not worth bringing.

You are right to think that.  Visible mods and you've failed as soon as the guy looks at your bay. Doesn't matter how clean you are on sniffer.  Catalytics are three or four times the cost of 49 state cats.  And a lot of older cars will need one every 2 years. Checks are $50-100 IIRC.  Smog PPM limits are low and shrink periodically and without warning.  25 year old federally exempt imports are not exempt here.  On the other hand, there is no safety inspection..

My kids are multiethnic too, and I have to admit it effects my thoughts on possible move locations.

8valve said:

tb said:

I am definitely interested in car specific info if it is important. I think that moving to CA means both of my modified cars would be in trouble and not worth bringing.

You are right to think that.  Visible mods and you've failed as soon as the guy looks at your bay. Doesn't matter how clean you are on sniffer.  Catalytics are three or four times the cost of 49 state cats.  And a lot of older cars will need one every 2 years. Checks are $50-100 IIRC.  Smog PPM limits are low and shrink periodically and without warning.  25 year old federally exempt imports are not exempt here.  On the other hand, there is no safety inspection..

My kids are multiethnic too, and I have to admit it effects my thoughts on possible move locations.

Oregon has no emissions testing in many areas and the emissions testing in areas where they care is a pretty basic sniffer/sound test and visual inspection of a cat or just a plug into the OBD port to show that it is ready.

Washington is similar I believe.

Re cars - NV has smog checks in two locations - Reno/Washoe County and Las Vegas/Clark county. No smog checks in other places. Plenty of modded cars at least at my end of the state, but the skew heavily to muscle cars and hot rods.

Ovid_and_Flem said:

In reply to szeis4cookie :

Where in Mississippi?  Curious to hear your experience

 

So I spent quite a few of my childhood years about an hour and a half west of Philadelphia (almost to Amish country but not quite).  I was the only kid in my elementary school who wasn't white. I spent my high school years in Starkville, MS - where contrary to my family's preconception we weren't the only Asian family in town thanks to all the engineering professors at Mississippi State. I feel like folks in the Northeast think they're better than the deep South about racial issues but they're really not - the worst bullying I ever got about my ethnicity was in middle school in Pennsylvania. By comparison, the deep South is dealing with their racial issues out in the open.

As a parent of biracial kids, one of the things I worried the most about was that my kids would end up dealing with the same things I did growing up. One of the things that makes me the happiest about where I live now is that my kids' school is an idyllic melting pot - our school had a Family Heritage Night recently and 49 countries were represented - which is something that would have been unthinkable to me as a kid.

Brian said:

In reply to Curtis :

Holy E36 M3, you’re paragraph about Pitt is the perfect summary of my time in Binghamton after years of being in Ithaca. The best I could come up with to describe it was a quote from Bojack “People are too stupid to realize how miserable they should be.”

I have spent some time in both and I agree.  Ithaca is a lovely town

Gotta make a move to a town that’s right for you. 

Woody said:

Gotta make a move to a town that’s right for you. 

Gotta move on

drainoil said:

Mndsm said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Oh trust me I know. Born and raised Minnesotan.  I looked at winter driving as a sport. I often looked upon the roads with a glint of challenge in my eye. But as dusk drew on my youth and winter became more about damn I need to dig the car out and take the kid to school and blah blah blah, it lost its appeal. Shovelling became a chore, not an exit to fun. It's gotten to the point where I can't stand snow. I'll miss the e brake corners and ice racing and watching 75k land rovers flounder helplessly as I plow though without a second thought in whatever 350$ beater that happened to fall within my reach, but man, I'm over it. I like the beach. The water calms me. I sink like a berkeleying rock, but I am a peaceful rock. 

That's where I'm at now (except my $350 beaters have cost me just a tad bit more lol). Regarding the last part of your statement I am about 8-10 years from being able to say what your saying.

Yes I've embraced winter almost every usual MN outdoor winter activity I've done most. It's in the eye of the beholder if this is one's proverbial cup of tea. It is a good place to raise children imo. I'm ready now for warm winters and no snow and ice covered roads but  just a few more years I can make it.

If it weren't for the winters here, based on what I've read, MN would likely be on the OP's list.

Ok, to be fair, twice They've cost me 400$. But the 100$ Taurus and the-250$ jeep offset that. 

pheller said:

On Pittsburgh: one thing I've noticed in differences between West and East is exemplified in Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh embraces it's grit. As a result, people appreciate "making due with what you've got". "Thrifting" (shopping for old stuff made in USA that is still high quality) is really popular in Pittsburgh, especially among younger people. Pittsburgh is strangely satisfied with just about everything. Maybe that's a product of just how happy people are to live there. 

I don't disagree, but Pittsburgh takes it to extremes.  Thrifting I respect.  A parable:  You buy a rusty K-car instead of a BMW because it is just as reliable and they both get you to work and back.  But thifting means you understand your choice.  You understand that a K-car is NOT a BMW and you're ok with it.  In Pittsburgh, they truly believe that a K-car IS as good as a BMW... maybe better, and they believe it to their core and will try to convince you that it is.  They will even challenge a BMW to a race or an autocross and when they lose spectacularly, they'll either blame it on the tires or turn around and spend thousands of dollars on upgrades like a plywood spoiler or some lime green double windshield wipers from 1992 to prove that it can be better.

That isn't thrifting, its denial.  I got so tired of it.  I don't care what you drive.  I don't care if you're poor and all you could afford was a $500 K-car, but don't try to convince me (let alone, yourself) that its a better performer than a BMW.  Realism.  Pittsburgh doesn't know the meaning.

Another example.  My ex wife's grandfather grew up (in Pittsburgh) playing the Banjo.  So while rooting around at an auction sale, he bought a banjo for $7.  It was missing a couple strings and needed help, but it was a 1951 Gibby Epiphone open back worth a few thousand dollars in the right hands.  His first order of business was to paint it with a 4" brush and some avocado green latex paint.  The whole thing. Strings, tuning pegs, diaphragm, everything.  He then hung it on his wall proudly, and until the day he died, the most important thing he wanted you to notice was that he hung it a little crooked because it looks better that way.  I saw it and literally cried.  Tears came to my eyes.

That is Pittsburgh in a nutshell.  I don't call it embracing your grit. I call it eating your grit and calling it Prime Rib.  I'm not rich.  I sometimes have nothing but grit, but I call it grit and I'm thankful for it.  I don't delude myself into thinking that grit is a steak.

Caveat:  Not everyone in Pittsburgh is like that.  Far from it.  But it is just not a town that I can stand.  Some people divorce because their spouse chews loudly.  I divorced Pittsburgh because they paint priceless banjos.

In reply to Curtis :

I like that you answer questions the same way that I do and really appreciate the input. I have experienced the malaise of a second city and am not really looking for an also ran situation.

This entire thread has been priceless for me because it has sparked some serious introspective thoughts and forced me to answer questions instead of letting them linger. 

Just a quick thanks to everyone, this has all been very valuable for me.

I think that I have made some big decisions but I am very interested in hearing from anyone who might have any kind of thought to share.

Mndsm said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Oh trust me I know. Born and raised Minnesotan.  I looked at winter driving as a sport. I often looked upon the roads with a glint of challenge in my eye. But as dusk drew on my youth and winter became more about damn I need to dig the car out and take the kid to school and blah blah blah, it lost its appeal. Shovelling became a chore, not an exit to fun. It's gotten to the point where I can't stand snow. I'll miss the e brake corners and ice racing and watching 75k land rovers flounder helplessly as I plow though without a second thought in whatever 350$ beater that happened to fall within my reach, but man, I'm over it. I like the beach. The water calms me. I sink like a berkeleying rock, but I am a peaceful rock. 

I understand the appeal of warm beaches. I spent 7 wonderful years in San Diego.   ( well except for periods when I visited that tropical paradise called Vietnam. ) 

Yet a balance must be struck, between income and the cost of living.  I never found an opportunity that would allow the sort of income where I could afford to live in SanDiego.  

Now my life affords me free flights to whatever beach calls the loudest when the weather is most unbearable. 

In the meantime I enjoy Minnesota nice.  Where your neighbor comes over with their snowblower to do your driveway.  Where you carry a tow strap to help strangers who are stuck. Smiles are common and being polite isn’t the power game it is in the south. 

I enjoy the company of well educated people who share the good times and are there when you need help.  

The OP is part of a multiracial family  who would feel at home here were diversity is embraced and all cultures are respected. 

One thing to consider is your view on life, this isn’t just to the OP but everyone, myself included as I can be guilty.  I’m not a religious person at all, but one of my closest friends is a strong Catholic and likes to tell the following:

A traveler was walking along a road from one town to another, after walking for hours he meets a fellow traveler coming the other way.  They exchange polite hellos and the first traveler asks the other ‘You are coming from the town I’m travelling too, how do you find the people there?’  The second traveler says ‘Well, tell me first, how were the people in the town you left behind?’  The first responds ‘Oh, they were awful, unfriendly, judgmental and not at all my kind of people’  “Well’ said the second traveler, ‘Then you will find the same ahead’  That strikes me as so true and I need to remind myself of it frequently in these types of conversations.

Total 180 now back closer to the matter at hand.  TB, you say that your daughter is three and you don’t need to be in any one fixed place.  Someone else mentioned RV living  and going where the fancy takes you.  There is another alternative that’s actually our goal for retirement.  Although we live in Metro Detroit right now, and I will always sing it’s praises, our long term goal is this.  Once retired we want to move to Traverse City area (NE lower Peninsular of MI)  Have a place close to the city and enjoy the spectacular countryside, water, forest, culture etc. etc.  That would be from Easter to Christmas.  For the Winter months we want a Condo in Florida, locations  TBD but possibly Tampa/St. Pete’s or St. Augustine area.  If the Condo isn’t doable it could be an RV in an RV park or rental.  It strikes me if you want to move every few years anyway, then with a three year old you’re in a prime position to do this.  You have a few years until your daughter needs to be in school full time and that way you can all experience two different cultural environments.  It doesn’t have to be my plane exactly, but it’s something to think about.  If so I highly recommend the Detroit area again as it covers all your bases perfectly with the exception of cold, but I’ve just fixed that for you.

Curtis - I appreciate your second Pittsburgh post as it provides necessary context for your experience in Pittsburgh.  I've been in Pittsburgh since 1997.  My hope is that your experience reflects what some of Pittsburgh has been for a long time and not where it is going.  There's a lot of great new things happening here on a very localized level throughout the city and suburbs.  But there are definite hurdles.  Neighborhoods are diverse from immigration a century ago, but they were mostly European/white and I have no doubt that minorities experience discrimination.  I think the younger population here is much more accepting/tolerant/open-minded, but we have a long way to go still.  I hear many different languages spoken on the street at lunch in downtown - that was much less common as recent as 5 years ago.  Ten years ago I told folks if I left my office on a Saturday or Sunday and there wasn't a game, I couldn't hit someone with a rock if you paid me.  Not true today.  I'll link a really interesting article on the arts scene in Pittsburgh that's different that most Pittsburgh is great puff pieces I've seen.  https://www.departures.com/travel/pittsburgh-culture-things-to-do?lipi=urn%3Ali%3Apage%3Ad_flagship3_feed%3B95OZuimxS3%2B1n%2BI9J8zOQw%3D%3D

The biggest opportunity I see for Pittsburgh for someone who is looking to move and land somewhere - other than the ocean and San Diego weather, Pittsburgh probably has it to offer if you look for it.  Affordable farms.  Affordable in city living.  Affordable suburbs.  Top schools.  Arts.  About any sort of recreation you can imagine within an hour of downtown, and that expands further with a 2 hour radius.  If you want to be an entrepreneur, it's a great place to be.

To the OP - a large reason we are here is because family is here or within a reasonable drive.  If that were out of the equation, I think some place a bit further south but still with winter would be better, or perhaps Michigan.  Also, I wanted to add, as a dad with 9 and 5 year old boys now active in school/sports activities, you have a good window of a few years to get out there and explore, and then as you probably expect, your life will change significantly again.  The school/work/soccer/chores routine takes a lot of our time.  I find we have to work pretty hard to make time to just get out and enjoy the outdoors, but we manage to.  Sailing, hiking, fishing, hunting.  I do fail to make time to enjoy the arts scene like I should.  

Pueblo is a hole.  It's definitely NOT going to be the next investment grade hipster ville.  Not even close.  Very little industry there, not pretty and fairly gang/crime ridden.  I like the race track there, that's it.  No way I'd buy rental property down there and I live an easy 2 hour drive away.

jj said:

I wouldn't recommend california if you want low taxes. Or cheap houses.  A mobile home in the town where I works costs around $300k + rent for the space.

Where do you work?  I've heard in the past that once out of the LA, SF metro areas housing and property gets significantly cheaper but it's those metro areas that make headline grabbing real estate prices.  Zero experience, just what I've gleaned on threads similar to this on other forums.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson :

Excellent traveler parable! So true. 

I have lived in world capitals, left and right coasts, flyover country and the deep south. Ive lived in some of the most disadntaged and depressed areas imaginable.  I've traveled to third world countries and international metropolis's.  And stayed longer than than a brief holiday stay of 2 week vacation (e.g., spent 4 months bouncing around 21 carribean islands rather than a 5 day all inclusive resort stay.).

In all I've had wonderful life experiences and met amazing people.  Never have I lived somewhere where there wasn't some significant redeeming quality.

In reply to tb:

Sound like ideas are coalescing.   I note it sounds like you've primarily lived in NE metro areas.  I think you and your family would enjoy a different region...SW, PNW or the South.  I'm sure you will find and area to satisfy your cultural interests while allowing yourself to enjoy local color.

As a born and raised southerner, I'm biased but I think you would really enjoy at leaSt a few years exposure to what we have to offer.  Huntsville, Charlotte,  Charleston, Savanah or the like sound like viable options.

Good luck!

In reply to frenchyd :

Diversity is probably better respected in MN than damn near anywhere else, to be sure. It's too cold to be mad at people for what color they are, and tbh,  you can't really tell under winter gear anyhow. Adjusting to the attitude in Florida has been a big shock. Half the time it's that southern ultra chill, the other half....yeah. 

klb67 said:

Curtis - I appreciate your second Pittsburgh post as it provides necessary context for your experience in Pittsburgh.  I've been in Pittsburgh since 1997.  My hope is that your experience reflects what some of Pittsburgh has been for a long time and not where it is going.  There's a lot of great new things happening here on a very localized level throughout the city and suburbs.  But there are definite hurdles.  Neighborhoods are diverse from immigration a century ago, but they were mostly European/white and I have no doubt that minorities experience discrimination.  I think the younger population here is much more accepting/tolerant/open-minded, but we have a long way to go still.  I hear many different languages spoken on the street at lunch in downtown - that was much less common as recent as 5 years ago.  Ten years ago I told folks if I left my office on a Saturday or Sunday and there wasn't a game, I couldn't hit someone with a rock if you paid me.  Not true today.  I'll link a really interesting article on the arts scene in Pittsburgh that's different that most Pittsburgh is great puff pieces I've seen.  https://www.departures.com/travel/pittsburgh-culture-things-to-do?lipi=urn%3Ali%3Apage%3Ad_flagship3_feed%3B95OZuimxS3%2B1n%2BI9J8zOQw%3D%3D

The biggest opportunity I see for Pittsburgh for someone who is looking to move and land somewhere - other than the ocean and San Diego weather, Pittsburgh probably has it to offer if you look for it.  Affordable farms.  Affordable in city living.  Affordable suburbs.  Top schools.  Arts.  About any sort of recreation you can imagine within an hour of downtown, and that expands further with a 2 hour radius.  If you want to be an entrepreneur, it's a great place to be.

To the OP - a large reason we are here is because family is here or within a reasonable drive.  If that were out of the equation, I think some place a bit further south but still with winter would be better, or perhaps Michigan.  Also, I wanted to add, as a dad with 9 and 5 year old boys now active in school/sports activities, you have a good window of a few years to get out there and explore, and then as you probably expect, your life will change significantly again.  The school/work/soccer/chores routine takes a lot of our time.  I find we have to work pretty hard to make time to just get out and enjoy the outdoors, but we manage to.  Sailing, hiking, fishing, hunting.  I do fail to make time to enjoy the arts scene like I should.  

I agree with the "not where it's going."

From 92-2000 I lived in Indiana PA about 40 minutes from the Burgh so I spent at least a couple days a week there.  During that time, my assessment of Pittsburgh was that it was full of aging steel workers who got a crappy severance check and they decided to just live off of Miller Lite and Swanson frozen dinners on their Chesterfield watching reruns of All In The Family because Archie Bunker was their hero.

I moved to Pittsburgh (Penn Hills/Verona area) in 2010-15 ish.  Snagged a house with over an acre for $58k.  The change was notable during the 10 years I had been gone.  One of the big factors in my initial assessment of a town is how vocal and present the LGBTQ population is.  Since LGBTQ is such a hot button these days, their "outness" is often an indicator of where things are.  That quotient had increased dramatically, as much of the older generation had passed on.  The new influx of younger people has really helped. (or hurt, depending on whether or not you were one of the Archie Bunker types).

It really is on the verge of critical mass for a renaissance.  Homewood  is full of absolutely beautiful old architecture, most of which is boarded up and condemned.  It needs to do one of those development projects like Baltimore did with the Inner Harbor; sell off those properties for $1 to people with the means to renovate.  In 5 years it will be a shiny gem.

I suppose it boils down to where you want to be in the renaissance; before it really starts like Pittsburgh and hope it catches on, or near the end of a renaissance like Asheville.

Southern Wisconsin has the new Foxconn and everything that'll bring. There's a lot of culture between Madison, Milwaukee and Chicago.

Madison has a good hippy type feel for it and has a great campus life/ downtown area. Milwaukee has a lot good stuff that's similar to Chicago but much more of a small town feeling compared to Chicago. Then there's Chicago. Its a big city in the tiny Midwest; good bad or other wise.

All in all, I'd go for Madison. Day trip it Milwaukee or Chicago for the big events, but Madison feels like a picturesque place that's great to raise kids and still feels like a place were you'll know everyone's name in a neighborhood.

Living in the Appleton/Green Bay Area, Madison always feels 5-10°F warm for some reason and is sunny more often and gets less snow (Probably) . Road America is something like an hour away, and someone else mentioned Door County which is something like 2.5-3 hours away. It's kind of like Hamptons of the Midwest but still in Wisconsin so it's still reasonable.

Great Driving roads are in the Driftless Zone.

Madison is just under that 'horn' area below the green arrow. Then there is the Wisconsin Dells (the horn area) which is a great family/tourist trap. Water parks, shopping, lots of outdoor stuff.