I hope i dont get lit up for this, but i am really curious. A page or 2 back it was mentioned that 10 were killed and 39 injured in shootings in Chicago over a weekend. Ive seen several documentaries about turf wars and gang warfare in big cities and have heard many of my predominantly black female coworkers say they are not scared of white people because its "black gangbangers and lazy thugs" who have shoot outs and break in while they are at work and steal their big flat screens in all black neighborhoods and apartments. I agree that that cop was wrong, i agree that one death, one abuse, one harassment, one prejudice is too many, but why is there no outrage from blacks about blacks killing each other over a red or blue bandana? Over saying the wrong thing, over representing the wrong block or neighborhood? Hispanics seem to do it way too much as well. What about the "systemic racism" when the ones running the local governments and representing the majority black areas in federal government are black too? How is that racism? Elijah Cummings was in the news recently and ive been to Baltimore, it really did seem like there was a systemic problem there, but at the time the majority of their govt was black. I am trying to understand as a middle aged blue collar white man in the South.
Justjim75 said:
I hope i dont get lit up for this, but i am really curious. A page or 2 back it was mentioned that 10 were killed and 39 injured in shootings in Chicago over a weekend. Ive seen several documentaries about turf wars and gang warfare in big cities and have heard many of my predominantly black female coworkers say they are not scared of white people because its "black gangbangers and lazy thugs" who have shoot outs and break in while they are at work and steal their big flat screens in all black neighborhoods and apartments. I agree that that cop was wrong, i agree that one death, one abuse, one harassment, one prejudice is too many, but why is there no outrage from blacks about blacks killing each other over a red or blue bandana? Over saying the wrong thing, over representing the wrong block or neighborhood? Hispanics seem to do it way too much as well. What about the "systemic racism" when the ones running the local governments and representing the majority black areas in federal government are black too? How is that racism? Elijah Cummings was in the news recently and ive been to Baltimore, it really did seem like there was a systemic problem there, but at the time the majority of their govt was black. I am trying to understand as a middle aged blue collar white man in the South.
You're taking a set of issues that is at least partially due to institutional racism and asking where the outrage is about it. Let's take it point by point:
1. Black gang violence gets a lot of attention in the media. There are gangs of white people dealing drugs, too. How often do you hear about them? Do you remember when black criminals were called super predators in the 80s? Do you think that message was crafted to inspire fear, or were those criminals really any more dangerous than other criminals? Have you heard the sound bytes from the news that say Latinos are here to do crimes? Sure, some of them are, but the vast aren't. I live in a neighborhood with a fairly high number of Latino minorities in it. They work their asses off, go to church and cook outside on nice days. Still, some of the reporting wants to focus on how dangerous the minorities are, how they represent a clear and present threat to the American Way Of Life... which is for what kind of people, then? Who wants to dictate who gets to partake in the American Dream? It is intentional, and has been going on since the Reconstruction period.
2. It's worth noting that those gang crimes aren't being committed because of the skin color of the actors, nor are they likely directed at people because of their skin color. A lot of “black-on-black crime” could be considered a by-product of de facto residential segregation, stilted educational opportunities and concentrated poverty. People way more qualified than I am publish scholarly papers about the cause-effect nature of crime, poverty and education. I won't attempt to do the topic justice, but I'm sure a bit of searching can turn it up.
3. If you don't think there is fear, outrage and sadness about gang violence in the communities it affects, please reconsider.
4. Local governments elect the people they want to lead them. While there may be some governmental representation by people of color, there has been decades of effort directed at limiting the political influence that can be exerted. As noted earlier in the discussion, in my state some districts were drawn along racial lines in violation of the Constitution.
I'm tired. I'm hoping I didn't type something asinine in this.
Steve_Jones said:
Supporting the police makes you a douchebag? So you won't call 911 if you need help right?
Supporting the police is fine. Thinking the police can do no wrong is something else. Actively supporting the police when they're doing harm is beyond comprehension.
Calling 911? I guess that depends where you live. In my case, we've had to be our own first responders before. Beyond that, Warren vs. the District of Columbia found the police have no specific obligation to protect us. It seems to me that the police's job is primarily to apprehend those who have already committed a crime, not protect people from falling victim to them.
"One of the foundational notions of nonviolence is that in order to be respected, one must behave well and abide by the social contract: work hard, follow the rules, and prosper. The problem is that since the beginning of the Atlantic Slave Trade, black people had worked harder and followed more rules, more strictly than anyone in America. And still they found themselves in an impossible and impoverished situation."
https://timeline.com/by-the-end-of-his-life-martin-luther-king-realized-the-validity-of-violence-4de177a8c87b
Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) said:
Justjim75 said:
I hope i dont get lit up for this, but i am really curious. A page or 2 back it was mentioned that 10 were killed and 39 injured in shootings in Chicago over a weekend. Ive seen several documentaries about turf wars and gang warfare in big cities and have heard many of my predominantly black female coworkers say they are not scared of white people because its "black gangbangers and lazy thugs" who have shoot outs and break in while they are at work and steal their big flat screens in all black neighborhoods and apartments. I agree that that cop was wrong, i agree that one death, one abuse, one harassment, one prejudice is too many, but why is there no outrage from blacks about blacks killing each other over a red or blue bandana? Over saying the wrong thing, over representing the wrong block or neighborhood? Hispanics seem to do it way too much as well. What about the "systemic racism" when the ones running the local governments and representing the majority black areas in federal government are black too? How is that racism? Elijah Cummings was in the news recently and ive been to Baltimore, it really did seem like there was a systemic problem there, but at the time the majority of their govt was black. I am trying to understand as a middle aged blue collar white man in the South.
You're taking a set of issues that is at least partially due to institutional racism and asking where the outrage is about it. Let's take it point by point:
1. Black gang violence gets a lot of attention in the media. There are gangs of white people dealing drugs, too. How often do you hear about them? Do you remember when black criminals were called super predators in the 80s? Do you think that message was crafted to inspire fear, or were those criminals really any more dangerous than other criminals? Have you heard the sound bytes from the news that say Latinos are here to do crimes? Sure, some of them are, but the vast aren't. I live in a neighborhood with a fairly high number of Latino minorities in it. They work their asses off, go to church and cook outside on nice days. Still, some of the reporting wants to focus on how dangerous the minorities are, how they represent a clear and present threat to the American Way Of Life... which is for what kind of people, then? Who wants to dictate who gets to partake in the American Dream? It is intentional, and has been going on since the Reconstruction period.
2. It's worth noting that those gang crimes aren't being committed because of the skin color of the actors, nor are they likely directed at people because of their skin color. A lot of “black-on-black crime” could be considered a by-product of de facto residential segregation, stilted educational opportunities and concentrated poverty. People way more qualified than I am publish scholarly papers about the cause-effect nature of crime, poverty and education. I won't attempt to do the topic justice, but I'm sure a bit of searching can turn it up.
3. If you don't think there is fear, outrage and sadness about gang violence in the communities it affects, please reconsider.
4. Local governments elect the people they want to lead them. While there may be some governmental representation by people of color, there has been decades of effort directed at limiting the political influence that can be exerted. As noted earlier in the discussion, in my state some districts were drawn along racial lines in violation of the Constitution.
I'm tired. I'm hoping I didn't type something asinine in this.
1. No, i have never heard in the news that hispanics are here to do harm. I have heard that criminals come across our unsecure border from Mexico.
2. "It's worth noting that those gang crimes aren't being committed because of the skin color of the actors, nor are they likely directed at people because of their skin color." Nope, because of the color of their clothes. Is that somehow better or ok? E36 M3, thats just crazy. And i did not ask or say why black on black crime exists, my question is why is there no outrage when 10 people die and 39 go to the ER in a weekend because of the color of their clothes (the gang they're in), or the innocent bystanders that get caught in the middle of such, but when one black person is murdered by a white person they burn down the city? Im not saying the death of George Floyd isnt protest worthy, I'm just wondering why ALL sensless and descrimanatory deaths aren't protested.
PS saying that blacks are killing each other is "the white mans fault" is a crock
Justjim75 said:
I hope i dont get lit up for this, but i am really curious. A page or 2 back it was mentioned that 10 were killed and 39 injured in shootings in Chicago over a weekend. Ive seen several documentaries about turf wars and gang warfare in big cities and have heard many of my predominantly black female coworkers say they are not scared of white people because its "black gangbangers and lazy thugs" who have shoot outs and break in while they are at work and steal their big flat screens in all black neighborhoods and apartments. I agree that that cop was wrong, i agree that one death, one abuse, one harassment, one prejudice is too many, but why is there no outrage from blacks about blacks killing each other over a red or blue bandana? Over saying the wrong thing, over representing the wrong block or neighborhood? Hispanics seem to do it way too much as well. What about the "systemic racism" when the ones running the local governments and representing the majority black areas in federal government are black too? How is that racism? Elijah Cummings was in the news recently and ive been to Baltimore, it really did seem like there was a systemic problem there, but at the time the majority of their govt was black. I am trying to understand as a middle aged blue collar white man in the South.
There is outrage and lots of work being done in our own communities to stop this violence, especially gang related or black on black crime. I grew up in the hood where this was prevalent. But, it isn't racism, its criminal activity. What that cop did to Mr Floyd is racist AND criminal. And most likely he will get off lightly. I will gander a guess that a lot (not all) of our internal issues in the black community stems from poverty and self-hate. Both of which was and is proven to be a by-product of racism in this country.
Just because there are black politicians or even a black POTUS, doesn't mean this country isn't deeply rooted in racism and that systemic racism isn't in effect today. That's really just living out of reality
Justjim75 said:
Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) said:
Justjim75 said:
I hope i dont get lit up for this, but i am really curious. A page or 2 back it was mentioned that 10 were killed and 39 injured in shootings in Chicago over a weekend. Ive seen several documentaries about turf wars and gang warfare in big cities and have heard many of my predominantly black female coworkers say they are not scared of white people because its "black gangbangers and lazy thugs" who have shoot outs and break in while they are at work and steal their big flat screens in all black neighborhoods and apartments. I agree that that cop was wrong, i agree that one death, one abuse, one harassment, one prejudice is too many, but why is there no outrage from blacks about blacks killing each other over a red or blue bandana? Over saying the wrong thing, over representing the wrong block or neighborhood? Hispanics seem to do it way too much as well. What about the "systemic racism" when the ones running the local governments and representing the majority black areas in federal government are black too? How is that racism? Elijah Cummings was in the news recently and ive been to Baltimore, it really did seem like there was a systemic problem there, but at the time the majority of their govt was black. I am trying to understand as a middle aged blue collar white man in the South.
You're taking a set of issues that is at least partially due to institutional racism and asking where the outrage is about it. Let's take it point by point:
1. Black gang violence gets a lot of attention in the media. There are gangs of white people dealing drugs, too. How often do you hear about them? Do you remember when black criminals were called super predators in the 80s? Do you think that message was crafted to inspire fear, or were those criminals really any more dangerous than other criminals? Have you heard the sound bytes from the news that say Latinos are here to do crimes? Sure, some of them are, but the vast aren't. I live in a neighborhood with a fairly high number of Latino minorities in it. They work their asses off, go to church and cook outside on nice days. Still, some of the reporting wants to focus on how dangerous the minorities are, how they represent a clear and present threat to the American Way Of Life... which is for what kind of people, then? Who wants to dictate who gets to partake in the American Dream? It is intentional, and has been going on since the Reconstruction period.
2. It's worth noting that those gang crimes aren't being committed because of the skin color of the actors, nor are they likely directed at people because of their skin color. A lot of “black-on-black crime” could be considered a by-product of de facto residential segregation, stilted educational opportunities and concentrated poverty. People way more qualified than I am publish scholarly papers about the cause-effect nature of crime, poverty and education. I won't attempt to do the topic justice, but I'm sure a bit of searching can turn it up.
3. If you don't think there is fear, outrage and sadness about gang violence in the communities it affects, please reconsider.
4. Local governments elect the people they want to lead them. While there may be some governmental representation by people of color, there has been decades of effort directed at limiting the political influence that can be exerted. As noted earlier in the discussion, in my state some districts were drawn along racial lines in violation of the Constitution.
I'm tired. I'm hoping I didn't type something asinine in this.
1. No, i have never heard in the news that hispanics are here to do harm. I have heard that criminals come across our unsecure border from Mexico.
2. "It's worth noting that those gang crimes aren't being committed because of the skin color of the actors, nor are they likely directed at people because of their skin color." Nope, because of the color of their clothes. Is that somehow better or ok? E36 M3, thats just crazy. And i did not ask or say why black on black crime exists, my question is why is there no outrage when 10 people die and 39 go to the ER in a weekend because of the color of their clothes (the gang they're in), or the innocent bystanders that get caught in the middle of such, but when one black person is murdered by a white person they burn down the city? Im not saying the death of George Floyd isnt protest worthy, I'm just wondering why ALL sensless and descrimanatory deaths aren't protested.
PS saying that blacks are killing each other is "the white mans fault" is a crock
How much outrage do you see over white-on-white crime? Probably hardly any. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I think you could benefit from reading Brett_Murphy post again. And look at the history of how black men are/were being represented in media. News papers used to say that we had an insatiable appetite to rape white women and that smaller caliber bullets didn't work on us. Then it turned to us being super predators and drug addicted through the 80s. During that entire time we were convicted with harsher punishment for identical crimes than white people. By the 90s we are missing our fathers because of over-policing and harsher sentences. Thus giving us this reputation of being basically incapable of being dads and lowering the probability of a stabile household and generating wealth. The entire time the police has been torturing us, which is something we've always known but just now being realized by the rest of America because it's getting recorded.
To take the topic of racism in America and the outrage of it and turn and say, where's the outrage for black-on-black crime. Its dismissive and deflects away from the issue.
slowbird said:
"One of the foundational notions of nonviolence is that in order to be respected, one must behave well and abide by the social contract: work hard, follow the rules, and prosper. The problem is that since the beginning of the Atlantic Slave Trade, black people had worked harder and followed more rules, more strictly than anyone in America. And still they found themselves in an impossible and impoverished situation."
https://timeline.com/by-the-end-of-his-life-martin-luther-king-realized-the-validity-of-violence-4de177a8c87b
And there's yet to be a violent uprising or violent revolution to end this E36 M3. I'm not sure what would get America's attention to bring us all together on this issue. Cops continue to go without suitable punishment for their crimes and we continue to suffer. Silent protest and kneeling is met with hate and opposition. And we're considered animals if we riot. It may always be a lose/lose situation for us in America, who knows. But it is scary, painful, and down right sad.
I don't want to add fuel to the flames, but I saw a documentary that was very telling.
It was the history of the Crips and the Bloods, and it told the story of how the auto plants in California were shut down, the neighborhoods gentrified, and Alabama police imported to put the black population in place. This could be the origin story from one of superhero movie that is so en vouge these days, were the outcome different.
So, I believe it is fair to say that our society creates a situation where groups of poor people are played off each other. It is important to know when you are being played.
In college, my girlfriend's aunt or grandmother or some such thing was prejudiced against Asians, and I was horribly offended by some of the stuff coming out of her mouth. Years later, I read Broken, and at least understood. She was from an under educated, poor area where most of the men went off to, as Springsteen put it "go and kill the yellow man". Of course there would be a dislike for the group of people who were responsible for the deaths of all those young men she knew.
The important thing is to look past, and see who benefits from these situations. Every war ever was fought by the poor for the benefit of the rich.
I am starting to ramble, and am having a hard time not going political, so I'll stop now. My main point is one of unity.
If I offend anyone, I'll take this down.
In reply to yupididit :
Im not deflecting anything. To say that black people rob and kill each other is the fault of anybody but those individuals is nuts to me.
Justjim75 said:
In reply to yupididit :
Im not deflecting anything. To say that black people rob and kill each other is the fault of anybody but those individuals is nuts to me.
Do you believe in Nature or Nurture? So if an individual harms someone else, it is because it is simply their nature? Or does it also have to do with how they were nurtured?
Justjim75 said:
In reply to yupididit :
Im not deflecting anything. To say that black people rob and kill each other is the fault of anybody but those individuals is nuts to me.
Obviously, a person who commits a crime should be held individually responsible. But, that isn't the topic of discussion. It feels like deflection when one brings up the topic of unjustified killings of black people by police and the other person replies with "well black people are killing each other in Chicago". Then, you question if our community has any outrage or protest towards decreasing that. Thanks for letting us know, but you're deflecting away from systemic racism in America.
Then you totally ignore any discussion of the purposeful policies and actions that disproportionately put blacks in poverty and lose/lose environments. Which DOES have an affect on crime etc. Crime is more likely in any impoverished community than a well off rich community, no matter the race. That doesn't mean we're disregarding personal accountability but it does reflect on how systemic racism has negativity impacted our community. Ontop of that, media for over a century constantly shows us at our worse and use that image to make us look like we aren't E36 M3. It works not only on other Americans view of us but it causes us to develop a self-hate complex.
Its like if every time your significant other points out a problem in yall relationship that you do that hurts her, you point out everything she does wrong to herself instead of talking about what she brung up. It'll feel like your dismissive of her issue and deflecting away from discussing it. She'll feel minimized. As if her problem isn't valid because she has personal/internal issues too. Then just to be extra, you go and tell all her friends, family, and strangers of all the mistakes she's made and only show her in a negative view. Do that for several hundred years.
Justjim75 said:
Brett_Murphy (Forum Patrón) said:
1. No, i have never heard in the news that hispanics are here to do harm. I have heard that criminals come across our unsecure border from Mexico.
PS saying that blacks are killing each other is "the white mans fault" is a crock
1. I have.
2. As I stated, there *is* outrage, fear and sadness. To fully explore this, we'd have to discuss how reporting has shifted since the repeal of the FCC Fairness Doctrine. It's my opinion that the violence in Chicago is primarily being used in the media to further the cause for the for-profit war on drugs and being capitalized on by those in favor of stricter gun control instead of being used to shed light on the underlying factors as to WHY Chicago is such a mess.
Which is a nice segue into your PS comment. I was trying to say at least some of the roots of urban crime stem, from decades of public policy. For many of those decades, there was very little minority representation, and it takes a long time, measured in generations, to change the inertia of a culture. I've noted here and elsewhere that some regions had, as recently as 17 years ago, elected officials that actively supported segregation still serving in government.
I fully realize that I'm not going to do this area of the discussion justice, so I'll just leave it here: Nobody makes somebody choose to become a criminal, but circumstances can align in such a way that many traditional paths to success seem impossible.
In reply to Justjim75 :
It goes back to the system. America as a whole (banks, politicians, etc.) have continually limited the opportunities for black people to get jobs, housing, and representation. The end result is a lot of angry, frustrated people fighting over the few scraps they have left.
Look at how many black men have served time for minor marijuana offenses thanks to the "war on drugs". Now they have a record, it's harder to get a job, etc. Well they were just smoking it themselves but now they might have to start dealing so they can buy food. Now they get busted again, they're a repeat offender, the system chews them up and spits them out. They end up with gang affiliations to try and protect themselves from the cops, other dealers, etc.
Meanwhile white people smoking weed get laughed off as the lovable local hippie. Cops don't go around harassing them or pulling them over because "your tail light is out", they just get left alone.
That's just a small part of it, but suffice to say that yes, white people as a whole have greatly influenced this situation for the worse.
I believe that cop needs his teeth kicked in and should spend the rest of his miserable life getting "educated" in prison or hanging from a rope. I also believe that, having been brutally abused until i was 14, having legitimate physical and emotional handicaps from it, i could have spent my life pointing fingers and blaming people or suck it up and move forward, which ive done despite not graduating high school, brief trips to jail, cocaine addiction etc.
My parents did whatever the opposite of nurturing is and ive never hurt or robbed anyone, and ive adopted one child and fathered one child and taken care of both.
Edit: that's my last post on this thread but ill keep reading
Edit, edit: Yup, i see a couple points and will look at a few things differently now, thanks. But i did not say "well black are killing each other in Chicago" i am asking why i, myself, dont see more public outcry about the rampant black on black crime.
In reply to Justjim75 :
And some people overcome the odds stacked against them. You had two bad parents stacked against you. What if all of society was against you. Not only you but anyone looking like you. And that had been going on for hundreds of years. Those odds make it almost impossible to succeed in the basics of life much less excel.
Justjim75 said:
I believe that cop needs his teeth kicked in and should spend the rest of his miserable life getting "educated" in prison or hanging from a rope. I also believe that, having been brutally abused until i was 14, having legitimate physical and emotional handicaps from it, i could have spent my life pointing fingers and blaming people or suck it up and move forward, which ive done despite not graduating high school, brief trips to jail, cocaine addiction etc.
My parents did whatever the opposite of nurturing is and ive never hurt or robbed anyone, and ive adopted one child and fathered one child and taken care of both.
I'm sorry you went through that and I'm glad you made something out of that.
As a whole, your relationship with your parents is what is like to be a black person in America. The government being that abusive and neglectful parent. Most black people love this country and love white people and most are good people just like any other group. Majority of black people, even in the ghetto do not commit crimes or hurt anyone else, just like you. Nor do majority blame their situation or mistakes on anyone else, just like you. But, that doesn't mean systemic racism didn't play a part in their situation or decisions. It doesn't mean they weren't affected generation after generation. It doesnt mean things aren't disturbingly more difficult for them to gain the same success as a white person could.
Again, I'm glad you came out with your life in order. That shows your perseverance and determination. Good on you
In reply to yupididit :
You are a good representative for your (our) cause, i hope you share in other places.
yupididit said:
Justjim75 said:
I hope i dont get lit up for this, but i am really curious. A page or 2 back it was mentioned that 10 were killed and 39 injured in shootings in Chicago over a weekend. Ive seen several documentaries about turf wars and gang warfare in big cities and have heard many of my predominantly black female coworkers say they are not scared of white people because its "black gangbangers and lazy thugs" who have shoot outs and break in while they are at work and steal their big flat screens in all black neighborhoods and apartments. I agree that that cop was wrong, i agree that one death, one abuse, one harassment, one prejudice is too many, but why is there no outrage from blacks about blacks killing each other over a red or blue bandana? Over saying the wrong thing, over representing the wrong block or neighborhood? Hispanics seem to do it way too much as well. What about the "systemic racism" when the ones running the local governments and representing the majority black areas in federal government are black too? How is that racism? Elijah Cummings was in the news recently and ive been to Baltimore, it really did seem like there was a systemic problem there, but at the time the majority of their govt was black. I am trying to understand as a middle aged blue collar white man in the South.
There is outrage and lots of work being done in our own communities to stop this violence, especially gang related or black on black crime. I grew up in the hood where this was prevalent. But, it isn't racism, its criminal activity. What that cop did to Mr Floyd is racist AND criminal. And most likely he will get off lightly. I will gander a guess that a lot (not all) of our internal issues in the black community stems from poverty and self-hate. Both of which was and is proven to be a by-product of racism in this country.
Just because there are black politicians or even a black POTUS, doesn't mean this country isn't deeply rooted in racism and that systemic racism isn't in effect today. That's really just living out of reality
Gang activity is a different issue. George Floyd wasn't a gang member. He wasn't involved in gang activity when he was arrested. In fact, from what I read he actually worked as a security guard at one time. He was a 50 something truck driver who was described by people who knew him as a gentle giant. I know guys like George Floyd. You might too. He really doesn't sound too much different from some of the guys who post here.
The real question is, if George Floyd was a white 50 year old blue collar worker would he have been treated the same way.
Major props to justjim for challenging and listening (among many other things!). We all learn because of that. And it's really hard to be the only one vs a group of peers.
Justjim75 said:
Not "VS"
at least it shouldn't be.
Justjim75 said:
In reply to yupididit :
You are a good representative for your (our) cause, i hope you share in other places.
Thank you. Maybe amongst my personal circles (I consider GRM one of those). But in general this conversation usually brings out the worst in other public forums. I left a car forum because they were just racist in general, don't let someone call them out on it then all hell broke loose. And very sexist too. What made it worse was it was a location based car forum, a lot of the posters were policemen, physicians, military, anything you could think of and it was sad and infuriating to see them post those things knowing they were responsible for people on a day to day basis. I heard its changed but nah I'm good lol.
Something I found interesting: I'm friends with two police officers on facebook. Both in different states. Both have, in the last 24 hours, posted 2 things, and 2 things only:
- The same article about an officer killed in the line of duty
- Different memes - one had a picture of Target, one had a picture of Autozone, but both had the same MLK picture saying the MLK picture is a protest; the other is a crime/larceny.
I don't disagree that it is a tragedy that the officer was killed in the line of duty. I don't disagree that the looting was a despicable crime. But if those are the only two things you've posted in the past 24 hours, it sends a bad message to me. I interpret it as "Police Brutality is not what we - the Police - should be worrying about right now".
mtn (Forum Supporter) said:
Something I found interesting: I'm friends with two police officers on facebook. Both in different states. Both have, in the last 24 hours, posted 2 things, and 2 things only:
The culture of "don't rock the boat, shut up and say the only the things that are tacitly approved to say" goes between jurisdictional boundaries. I've been told that peer pressure among police to conform to this is real, and that even speaking out about something that happened in another state is a good way to alienate yourself.
