Just shoot yourself

Firearms are very controlled downunder, yet we have had many incidences of people doing similar acts. I have attended several as a cop.

I was here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Street_massacre

and here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoddle_Street_massacre

How would gun control actually save the life on a single child if a criminal decides to do such a revolting act?

Do we ban knives, cars and rocks as well.

However if one trained responsible adult had been present, both of these could have been cut off before they escalated

The firearm never kills a person, the person holding the firearm however...

If you have not been to a situation like this you will never understand them, if you have been to one, you now know that there is no understanding.

Anti-stance wrote:

Geekspeed wrote: I was thinking about the mental illness angle on this. How DO you figure out which people are mentally unstable enough to come unhinged and go on a rampage? I hate to say this, but I don't think you CAN. Here is my reasoning: Statistics. This is a nation of 300 million people. In the last year, I believe you have had, what 5 people go insane and go shoot people up? That is 0.00000002% of the population. How the HELL do you catch that? It is such a huge statistical outlier, that even IF a program is 99.99999% effective, you still would not catch those people. And I think that, no matter what weapons they have at their disposal, they will still kill. Humans have proven to be extremely adept at killing each other. I don't know what the solution is. I am not sure that there is one. Locking down schools would be a good idea, but we will never be totally free of this kind of violence. Humans are too varied, and there are just too damned many of us to catch this infinitesimally small portion of the population. As individuals, we need to be as vigilant as possible to protect ourselves and the ones we love. It is the best that we can do.

+1 I think for the immediate, there should be a police officer at every school as well as a security system in place that prevents any visitor from entering the school without that officer placing an eye on him/her.

Ya know, my knee-jerk reaction was that this was a knee-jerk reaction, but yeah, why not? If we're going to have government schools, why not throw an extra $50-$60k a year at someone to make sure if E36 M3 goes down, it's handled quickly.

Colaboy: Obviously, we are culturally different (the United States and Canada,) as different cultures within our countries have different influence on our respective national identities. Africa and South America are the most violent continents in the world, and their cultures are more influential on American culture. How many internationally recognized Canadian rappers are there? Any violence spilling over the borders from Mexican gangs?

As long as it's all Ann Murray, Celine Dion, and drunk indians, yes, your culture will remain more peaceful than the U.S. As your country continues to import Northern African "refugees," well, let me know how that works out for you.

Or maybe we're just scared of another British invasion. That probably makes more sense.

aussiesmg wrote: The firearm never kills a person, the person holding the firearm however...

I am very much on the side of serious gun control. I was that way before this incident, and am even more so now.

I agree 110% that the firearm itself doesn't kill, the person holding it does. Truer words were never said. However...if the jackwad doesn't have access to a gun, this E36 M3 doesn't happen. Period.

I also agree that there are much deeper and very complex social issues at work here, and the gun itself isn't the root cause. But again, without access to a gun, the risk of a tragedy like this is dramatically reduced.

I'm sorry, say what you want, but you will not be able to convince me why your average Joe Blow needs access to a semi-automatic weapon meant for only one thing...killing another human.

Drove by the high school my daughter attends this morning and the middle school right across the street. There were cop cars at both schools, obviously someone is doing a security check. Good on 'em. I don't care if I have to show ID to come on school grounds as long as my daughter and the rest of the kids are safe.

I will bite my tongue on a reply to the 'but Canada is so much better than the US' post. This isn't the time or place.

Klayfish wrote:

aussiesmg wrote: The firearm never kills a person, the person holding the firearm however...

I am very much on the side of serious gun control. I was that way before this incident, and am even more so now. I agree 110% that the firearm itself doesn't kill, the person holding it does. Truer words were never said. However...if the jackwad doesn't have access to a gun, this E36 M3 doesn't happen. Period. I also agree that there are much deeper and very complex social issues at work here, and the gun itself isn't the root cause. But again, without access to a gun, the risk of a tragedy like this is dramatically reduced. I'm sorry, say what you want, but you will not be able to convince me why your average Joe Blow needs access to a semi-automatic weapon meant for only one thing...killing another human.

How many incidences of Murder do not involve a gun, removing the gun does not remove the Jackwad, who will use a truck or a machete or and chainsaw or a... you get the idea, well maybe YOU don't

From what I have read, this school was a shining example of security: locks on all doors and controlled access but the shooter was able to defeat the system(by breaking the glass and forcing his way in) so that he was the only person in the school to have a weapon and able to kill at will. Evidently there was no SRO on the premises and the staff may not have been trained to resist. If the shooter was using two pistols to kill 26 people, at some point he had to reload. That is the opportunity to turn the tide. However if he had extended mags or similar, he had the advantage.
It is a tragedy and no one should try to take advantage of the situation. But I investigated a local shooting that killed the responding officer and even the responding agencies used the event to get new weaponry even though the shooter never fired another shot in response. Everyone has a spin angle......

I just read the victim list (why was that even released? Why did I read it?!?) and found a little boy that might be family. My family is from Connecticut and many great uncles and aunts and cousins still live up there.

Datsun1500 wrote: If you put a cop at every school, the nut job will just shoot him first. If you lock the school like a prison, the nut job will just wait until dismissal, or shoot up a school bus. Ya can't stop crazy.

No one attacks a prison. They will go to the mall.

Curmudgeon wrote: I will bite my tongue on a reply to the 'but Canada is so much better than the US' post.

Did I miss something? I don't see that one.

Makes me want to serve my community as a public school security officer.

The painful truth.

^ this

Evil sux. I have chosen to arm myself. I will not apologize for this decision.

My children's schools called tonight to express their thoughts and concerns with this situation. They are also opening a special phone line for parents on Monday to call in and ask about any concerns they may have about the safety of our schools. I will admit that I'm having a lot of heartache sending my two boys back to school and my daughter back to college next month. I don't know that there is any way we can truly protect them. Friends say they will home school now.....but you can't lock them up. I do intend on calling that line and finding out exactly what their safety measures are and what they are doing to make them better. No, I won't apologize for arming myself either. Either with a gun OR with insisting on better safety measures for my children and their teachers.

If this nutjob had instead decided to torch a loaded school bus, we wouldn't be talking about how big of a gas can somebody should be allowed to own, we would be talking about how crazy he was. Guns are an easy target, go for the hard one, mental healthcare.

In reply to Toymanswife:

I am happy to see so many schools are taking some form of action. I for one would be interested in what they say they are going to do to help make sure this doesn't happen again. I hope most offer up real solutions and not just some smoke and mirrors to try and make people feel safer without actually doing something. Communities need to start getting more involved again seems there is no connection between the people and their schools anymore. They just ship their kids off to school and dont even bother to know the teachers in some cases.

It amazes me how few parents seem to be involved in their kids schools. I know WHO their teachers are. I am THERE quite often. I email regularly and I expect replies. Yes, it's their job to teach our children but it's OUR job to help them. Yes, I want to know what they are doing also. I've seen two county schools in the last two years and I'd like to see them combine their methods in many things. The phone call made me cry. Again. That seems to be what I've been doing since this all came down....I'm sure my 13 year old is sick of the hugs but he's just going to have to deal.

In reply to rebelgtp:

But watch the news, barring countries that are at war, do you really see anything that remotely compares to the US?

Yes - tragically... This Norwegian fellow killed 69 people - mostly teenagers at a summer camp.

In Beslan Russia, 186 children and 148 adults were killed in a hostage situation between terrorists and Russian troops.

Earlier this year a gunman attacked children and teachers at a Jewish school in Toulouse, France

A few years earlier, there was a bomb attack on a Catholic school in Ireland

Before that - in 1996 a guy in England carried out a machete attach at a Wolverhampton school teddy bear picnic

Attacks have also been happening in Chinese schools for the past few years - mostly with knives and hammers. The latest was the day before this. At least 90 children have been injured and 30 killed. That's with censored news.

Using the most vulnerable as hostages, scapegoats, human shields, political statements or a mechanism to vent mentally disturbed delusions is not a U.S.-only issue, not particularly a gun issue. It's a human issue.

[EDIT: I made a gun control thread where we can discuss this stuff without doing it in what was supposed to be a discussion of the tragedy and our feelings about it. Put this stuff over there so Tom doesn't lock this thread. - JoeyM]

colaboy wrote: But watch the news, barring countries that are at war, do you really see anything that remotely compares to the US? You can't say Somalia is worse, it's oranges and apples.

I wanted to respond, but think this thread should be left free from debate so we can all focus on the loss of the families. I put a response over in another thread.

aussiesmg wrote: How many incidences of Murder do not involve a gun, removing the gun does not remove the Jackwad, who will use a truck or a machete or and chainsaw or a... you get the idea, well maybe YOU don't

Let's not make this personal, I wasn't attacking you personally, so I'd appreciate if you don't insult me. If you'd like to trade insults, find someone who'll stoop to your level.

I do get the idea, plain and simple. As I wrote in my post, I agree with pretty much everything else said. It's the dumbass with the gun that's the problem. Yes, there are knifes, chainsaws, etc... I don't have the numbers handy, but I'm sure they're readily available. How many murders were commited in the US by gun? How many by machete or chainsaw? I think they statistics would be staggeringly in favor of the gun. Our society has a lot of issues. Adding easy access to guns just makes it all that much worse. I'm sorry, I can't remember the last time I heard of a mass murder here in our country by chainsaw. But I can count dozens that have happened by gun.

[EDIT: I made a gun control thread where we can discuss this stuff without doing it in what was supposed to be a discussion of the tragedy and our feelings about it. Put this stuff over there so Tom doesn't lock this thread. - JoeyM]

[EDIT: I made a gun control thread where we can discuss this stuff without doing it in what was supposed to be a discussion of the tragedy and our feelings about it. Put this stuff over there so Tom doesn't lock this thread. - JoeyM]

Here is another side to how to handle and prevent this sort of tragedy other than the gun-control one:

http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html

This is a mother dealing with a mentally ill 13-y.o. child prone to violent outbursts and threats against his family and himself. She sees the perpetrators of mass killings like these in her son and his behavior. He is too much for her to handle and there are really no good resources for them to get the help they need. Mental health is what we should be talking about, not guns.

Joey, my post has nothing to do with gun control. The point is that America doesn't have the exclusive on broken people who target the vulnerable.

It's tragic, but this stuff happens around the globe. It sucks and I wish the broken ones could stick to just self destruction if it comes down to it. That was the message,

Morgan Freeman's brilliant take on what happened yesterday :

"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.

It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single victim of Columbine? Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."