Just shoot yourself

Mental health is still a touchy subject. Many MANY people (my parents included) like to ignore it and pretend it's a temporary thing, or someone is just "sad" or a "loner" whatever the case may be. No one wants to admit to their child having a mental deficiency, unless it's ADHD, because that seems to be trendy right now. In doing some reading on this history of this kid, I can kind of guess what's gone on, based on what little bit the news has let out. Of course he was a goth loner who wore a trenchcoat, played videogames, and no one in his high school class remembered him. His mother, while not personally well off, did very well in the divorce from his father, to the tune of a giant house, and a pile of cash that she used to host parties and so on in her affluent community, something north of 300k/yr. Turns out she was a bit of a unique soul as well, as she was known for buying up large stockpiles of guns, Doomsday style. To say the family dynamic in that home was not beneficial to an already socially awkward kid is a bit of an understatement. Then you throw in the fact that he geniunely DID have an MH diagnosis (Aspergers to be exact) and the pieces start falling into place. He had no one, anywhere. Mom was too busy hosting wine tastings and hoarding up weapons and beans for the next coming of Christ, dad lived down in Stamford and was basically out of the picture from what I gather, school brushed him aside to the point that no one even remembered him, and this kid is probably so out of his element, he doesn't even know how to ask for help, let alone realize he needs it. I'm gonna be the shiny happy person here, and say this comes down to parenting. CLEARLY this kid was lashing out at his parents (his mother specifically) for some perceived wrongdoing. He shot up the school she worked at, he killed her, etc etc. Who's fault is it? I back it right up to mom. I watch my child every day, all day, as long as he is awake, to learn his nuances. I know what he likes, i know what he doesn't like, and so on- and he's 15 months old ( and currently napping on my lap). Mom seemed to have been pretty self absorbed, and possibly mentally deficient in some fashion herself ( it is said that the spectrum as it were can be genetic, and it would certainly explain the guns, and the very serious idea of prepping for the end of civilization) and basically ignoring this kid to the point he lashed out. It is absolutely a tragedy that this happened. What's even worse is, it's not going to change the minds of the masses when it comes to things like parenting, spending time with your kids, learning to work with them to make sure they grow up happy and well adjusted. We as a society will still likely plunk them in front of the TV, piss and moan at school teachers and staff when a bully is presented, and schools are going to continue to get shot up.We're going to cry for gun control, more secure schools, cops on every corner, all the things that bring us closer to a police state. And when we GET said police state, people are going to bitch that their freedoms are being infringed upon. This allllll comes down to basic parenting skills.

The reason I say this? I've been this kid. Not to say i've ever brought a weapon to school, or even considered it, but i've been there. I grew up in an abusive household where things like getting knocked the berkeley out for losing some lunch tickets was not out of the norm. I had no friends, no hope of making any, and no one would listen to me. I was fortunate enough that as I got a little older, people started seeing me for who I was. I had a couple of teachers that realized the situation I was in, and gave me not so much an ear to bend, but allowed me to be comfortable in their classes, to the point I felt safe, at least there. Could I have possibly ended up in this situation with my face plastered all over the news? Very possibly. I knew where the guns were, I knew how to load them, and I honestly didn't give enough of a E36 M3 about any of my classmates that hurting them would have been a major concern at the time. BUT- there was enough people around that even pretended to give a E36 M3, that I wasn't a statistic. I learned to be comfortable with me, learned to work within my own limitations and disabilities, and while I may not have grown up to be a CEO or Jesus or anything, I'm happy with where I am. I'd be willing to bet that if this kid was afforded the same "second" look I was, we'd be reading about how Snooki is still a whore instead of 27 dead people.

oldtin wrote: Joey, my post has nothing to do with gun control. The point is that America doesn't have the exclusive on broken people who target the vulnerable. It's tragic, but this stuff happens around the globe. It sucks and I wish the broken ones could stick to just self destruction if it comes down to it. That was the message,

Fair enough.

Beer Baron wrote: Morgan Freeman's brilliant take on what happened yesterday : "You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why. It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine? Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

That is exactly my opinion on the subject as well. The media has told the world that when you decide to go crazy and kill yourself this is how you do it, and I dont see a way it will ever stop until people all over the country stop talking about these things for weeks when they happen.

mndsm wrote: Mental health is still a touchy subject. Many MANY people (my parents included) like to ignore it and pretend it's a temporary thing, or someone is just "sad" or a "loner" whatever the case may be. No one wants to admit to their child having a mental deficiency, unless it's ADHD, because that seems to be trendy right now. In doing some reading on this history of this kid, I can kind of guess what's gone on, based on what little bit the news has let out. Of course he was a goth loner who wore a trenchcoat, played videogames, and no one in his high school class remembered him. His mother, while not personally well off, did very well in the divorce from his father, to the tune of a giant house, and a pile of cash that she used to host parties and so on in her affluent community, something north of 300k/yr. Turns out she was a bit of a unique soul as well, as she was known for buying up large stockpiles of guns, Doomsday style. To say the family dynamic in that home was not beneficial to an already socially awkward kid is a bit of an understatement. Then you throw in the fact that he geniunely DID have an MH diagnosis (Aspergers to be exact) and the pieces start falling into place. He had no one, anywhere. Mom was too busy hosting wine tastings and hoarding up weapons and beans for the next coming of Christ, dad lived down in Stamford and was basically out of the picture from what I gather, school brushed him aside to the point that no one even remembered him, and this kid is probably so out of his element, he doesn't even know how to ask for help, let alone realize he needs it. I'm gonna be the shiny happy person here, and say this comes down to parenting. CLEARLY this kid was lashing out at his parents (his mother specifically) for some perceived wrongdoing. He shot up the school she worked at, he killed her, etc etc. Who's fault is it? I back it right up to mom. I watch my child every day, all day, as long as he is awake, to learn his nuances. I know what he likes, i know what he doesn't like, and so on- and he's 15 months old ( and currently napping on my lap). Mom seemed to have been pretty self absorbed, and possibly mentally deficient in some fashion herself ( it is said that the spectrum as it were can be genetic, and it would certainly explain the guns, and the very serious idea of prepping for the end of civilization) and basically ignoring this kid to the point he lashed out. It is absolutely a tragedy that this happened. What's even worse is, it's not going to change the minds of the masses when it comes to things like parenting, spending time with your kids, learning to work with them to make sure they grow up happy and well adjusted. We as a society will still likely plunk them in front of the TV, piss and moan at school teachers and staff when a bully is presented, and schools are going to continue to get shot up.We're going to cry for gun control, more secure schools, cops on every corner, all the things that bring us closer to a police state. And when we GET said police state, people are going to bitch that their freedoms are being infringed upon. This allllll comes down to basic parenting skills. The reason I say this? I've been this kid. Not to say i've ever brought a weapon to school, or even considered it, but i've been there. I grew up in an abusive household where things like getting knocked the berkeley out for losing some lunch tickets was not out of the norm. I had no friends, no hope of making any, and no one would listen to me. I was fortunate enough that as I got a little older, people started seeing me for who I was. I had a couple of teachers that realized the situation I was in, and gave me not so much an ear to bend, but allowed me to be comfortable in their classes, to the point I felt safe, at least there. Could I have possibly ended up in this situation with my face plastered all over the news? Very possibly. I knew where the guns were, I knew how to load them, and I honestly didn't give enough of a E36 M3 about any of my classmates that hurting them would have been a major concern at the time. BUT- there was enough people around that even pretended to give a E36 M3, that I wasn't a statistic. I learned to be comfortable with me, learned to work within my own limitations and disabilities, and while I may not have grown up to be a CEO or Jesus or anything, I'm happy with where I am. I'd be willing to bet that if this kid was afforded the same "second" look I was, we'd be reading about how Snooki is still a whore instead of 27 dead people.

that's a pretty well thought out and articulated comment on the killing spree ... though the last I've read says his Mom didn't/had never worked at that school

otherwise, pretty good

wbjones wrote: though the last I've read says his Mom didn't/had never worked at that school

This is the first I had heard of that, but I'm now seeing that claim, too.
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/12/coroner_newtown_gunman_adam_la.html

Education officials said they had found no link between Lanza's mother and the school, contrary to news reports that said she was a teacher there. Investigators said they believe Adam Lanza attended Sandy Hook many years ago, but they had no explanation for why he went there Friday.

JoeyM wrote:

wbjones wrote: though the last I've read says his Mom didn't/had never worked at that school

This is the first I had heard of that, but I'm now seeing that claim, too. http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/12/coroner_newtown_gunman_adam_la.html

Education officials said they had found no link between Lanza's mother and the school, contrary to news reports that said she was a teacher there. Investigators said they believe Adam Lanza attended Sandy Hook many years ago, but they had no explanation for why he went there Friday.

This is why news media is bullE36 M3. They're so quick to get a story out they report false E36 M3.

Travis_K wrote: That is exactly my opinion on the subject as well. The media has told the world that when you decide to go crazy and kill yourself this is how you do it, and I dont see a way it will ever stop until people all over the country stop talking about these things for weeks when they happen.

Almost the whole of Marilyn Manson's "Holy Wood" album was a long, angry/sad lament on this facet of our culture: The way we and especially our media (let's face it, they wouldn't be selling it if we weren't buying it) deifies those who decide to kill themselves and others in a photogenic way, to the point where many feel that it's the hot ticket to being remembered.

There's a movement on FARK to only refer to the Aurora yahoo as "Sideshow Bob" - this way, he can be talked about without actually referring to him by name.

Some of these people, though, are just plain psychopaths, unable to empathize with anybody. After he was arrested. the dishpit who shot up his high school east of Cleveland said "This is really going to mess up my future." The only thing that crossed his mind was that having this on his record was going to make it difficult to get into the college of his choice. He's made further statements to that effect, as well.

As far as I'm concerned, people like that should just be put down. It's not a revenge thing, or a "justice" thing, or a deterrent thing, but recognizing that a person like that simply can not function in society and are so fundamentally screwed up that they either never will, or if they ever do understand the enormity of what they'd done, then it's also the most humane thing to do.

In reply to Knurled:

As someone that suffers from mental illness I think all "normal" people should be put down, so they don't have to suffer when the "crazy" people kill them. It's the most humane thing to do.

Really, get your head out of your ass.

I don't neccesarily agree with Knurled- in the sense that I don't honestly believe there is a "true psychopath". Whenever you read about someone that commits a crime on this scale, they almost always leave out the parts where there is/was a true mental deficiency. The problem lies in the fact that as a whole, society is HORRIBLY underequipped to deal with the mental illness afflicted population. Right now, we have therapy, locking them up, and drugs. We're in our infancy as a society when it comes to learning how to treat a mental illness, and what even quantifies as a mental illness. I guarantee that if I were to be tested today, i'd have a laundry list of things that society would deem "imperfect" about me, and i'd be on a E36 M3pile of drugs and be seeing 14 therapists. As it sits, I am on 0 drugs, I have a wife that gets that stuff just sometimes needs to be a certain way, and we roll with it. What we all struggle with is trying to put a label on everything. Because I need the volume on my radio to be a 5 or a 0, (IE 5,10,15) I would be considered to have OCD. Along with that, I'm suddenly in the group that takes 14 hours to get out of the bathroom because my toothbrush is wrong. Nope, just the radio. Hell, my shoes don't even match half the time. Because I am very systematic in my methods and can do numbers like nobodies business, and I could be considered socially awkward, I could be considered on the autism spectrum. That puts me in the group with the nonverbal kids that are so severely impared, that until we can learn to communicate with them in a method they understand, these kids have no hope of a normal life. Ask my wife about that, it's what she does for a living. Am I truly either of those things? Not terribly likely. Fact of the matter is, there is simply stuff we don't know about a lot of these cases. And for this kid, his mother, and 26 strangers, we will never know the answer. There will be hypotheses and forensic psychiatric experts and all kinds of mumbo jumbo, but the fact is, we will never know. To say this kid needs to be offed because he's a murderous psychopath is inaccurate at best, detrimental at worst. Maybe there really is such a thing as a murderous crazy who wants nothing more than to watch the world burn, and take as many lives as he can get in the process. Maybe there isn't. Until we can LEARN the truth of these matters, we can sit and pontificate and pretend to know the right answer, but you and I know no better than the rest.

Considering that we're now talking about mental faculties, perhaps this is worth a read:

http://thebluereview.org/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother/

EDIT: Aside to mmdsm..wishing you well, bro. Man, my 'beast' is nothing compared to yours. I didn't have an abusive home, perhaps that's why I never had to find others to give me that "second look".

In reply to friedgreencorrado:

Mom sounds like someone that's too lazy to do any of her own research, and is unwilling to do any work to find any sort of help. She wants someone else to do everything for her, for her kid. She is one of the problems with mental healthcare in the united states because she is expecting someone else to solve it for her.

FWIW: Interesting point heard on one of the talking head shows - most, if not all of these recent shootings occured in "gun free zones." If you want to cause a bloodbath, what better place than one where your law abiding victims will be unarmed? See also: Airplanes.

poopshovel wrote: FWIW: Interesting point heard on one of the talking head shows - most, if not all of these recent shootings occured in "gun free zones." If you want to cause a bloodbath, what better place than one where your law abiding victims will be unarmed? See also: Airplanes.

Hospitals

aussiesmg wrote:

poopshovel wrote: FWIW: Interesting point heard on one of the talking head shows - most, if not all of these recent shootings occured in "gun free zones." If you want to cause a bloodbath, what better place than one where your law abiding victims will be unarmed? See also: Airplanes.

Hospitals

Army Bases

One thought on this, if the shooter at the Conn. school was intent on doing harm to his mother and at the school, and guns were not available to him at his mother's house, what would stop him from killing her with a knife and setting a bomb at the school? Certainly a bomb at the school would have the potential to kill a lot more people. Perhaps the fact that he was able to get his hands on the guns means that he did not feel the need to take it to the next level, and as terrible as this incident was, it could have been so much worse if not for the guns? Just food for thought. Perhaps many more lives were saved by the fact that he HAD guns and not something much more devastating.

A few months ago our hospital had training programs with shooter scenarios. You wouldn't normally think of using the patients as human shields (I keed, I keed).

The message actually was you can't help patients if you're dead. Do whatever you have to in order to GTFO. Drywall and dryvit leave plenty of exit options unlike a lot of school buildings.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

aussiesmg wrote:

poopshovel wrote: FWIW: Interesting point heard on one of the talking head shows - most, if not all of these recent shootings occured in "gun free zones." If you want to cause a bloodbath, what better place than one where your law abiding victims will be unarmed? See also: Airplanes.

Hospitals

Army Bases

I'm told that was just "workplace violence." Probably watched an offensive movie or something.

Offended by the church service or someone said "Merry Christmas"

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

aussiesmg wrote:

poopshovel wrote: FWIW: Interesting point heard on one of the talking head shows - most, if not all of these recent shootings occured in "gun free zones." If you want to cause a bloodbath, what better place than one where your law abiding victims will be unarmed? See also: Airplanes.

Hospitals

Army Bases

If army bases are anything like the air force bases I grew up on. The only ones armed are the MP's and the range master with the keys to the armory.

friedgreencorrado wrote: Considering that we're now talking about mental faculties, perhaps this is worth a read: http://thebluereview.org/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother/ EDIT: Aside to mmdsm..wishing you well, bro. Man, my 'beast' is nothing compared to yours. I didn't have an abusive home, perhaps that's why I never had to find others to give me that "second look".

Thanks. I don't share it to be all woe is me, I'm not that guy. But people tend to get lost in the what to do end of it, more guns, less guns, prayer, whatever. What people seem to gloss over is the reason. It's sorta like putting a bandaid on a knife wound, without looking at what could have prevented it in the first place. And no, it's not taking the knife away. I like knives, they cut my tasty steaks. It's looking at the person that held the knife that stabbed me, instead of sharing a tasty steak with me. I've fought every imaginable possible scenario of a terrible household you can think of. I've also learned that, instead of lashing out at the people that have wronged me, prove that in spite of them, I am the better person. However, there are still enough people that fall through the cracks that may never get that chance. People fail to realize the whole butterfly effect. One teacher in particular, whom I lost contact with shortly after my bio father died- she will never know what she meant to me. She took the time to see me for who I was, to give me a chance to excel at what I did, and to generally be cool with bein' a bit different from the norm. It didn't make my life easier being ostracized as a young high school kid in a new school, but it taught me that sometimes the result is all that matters in spite of the grind. I think with a little more help, this kid could have been in the same boat. I just wish that more people realized that being off-base isn't an instant discount as a person. I sadly, do not see that happening in our lifetimes.

Spinout007 wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

aussiesmg wrote:

poopshovel wrote: FWIW: Interesting point heard on one of the talking head shows - most, if not all of these recent shootings occured in "gun free zones." If you want to cause a bloodbath, what better place than one where your law abiding victims will be unarmed? See also: Airplanes.

Hospitals

Army Bases

If army bases are anything like the air force bases I grew up on. The only ones armed are the MP's and the range master with the keys to the armory.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2009-11-06/news/0911060019_1_walter-reed-fort-hood-soldiers-and-family-members

aussiesmg wrote: Offended by the church service or someone said "Merry Christmas"

I tell everyone, "Merry Christmas" at the shop. If their offended, they can berkeley off.

N Sperlo wrote:

aussiesmg wrote: Offended by the church service or someone said "Merry Christmas"

I tell everyone, "Merry Christmas" at the shop. If their offended, they can berkeley off.

Thats the 'ol spirit of the season I was so missing!

Not enough people are berkeleying off this xmas.

Beer Baron wrote: Here is another side to how to handle and prevent this sort of tragedy other than the gun-control one: http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html This is a mother dealing with a mentally ill 13-y.o. child prone to violent outbursts and threats against his family and himself. She sees the perpetrators of mass killings like these in her son and his behavior. He is too much for her to handle and there are really no good resources for them to get the help they need. Mental health is what we should be talking about, not guns.

I just read that post, there is so much truth in what she wrote.

Derick Freese wrote: In reply to friedgreencorrado: Mom sounds like someone that's too lazy to do any of her own research, and is unwilling to do any work to find any sort of help. She wants someone else to do everything for her, for her kid. She is one of the problems with mental healthcare in the united states because she is expecting someone else to solve it for her.

It has nothing to do with lazy. Or trying to shove it off on someone else.

I won't bore you with the various incidents that happened in my case, but here's the thing, as I learned first hand: there is only so much that a family member can do, particularly when the person with the problem is of legal age. Our hands are tied by laws and other things and so called 'research' gets people like me absolutely nowhere, it's not like just Googling valve lash specs or etc. Thanks to medical privacy laws, I could not even talk with my ex's counselor about her problems except in the most general of terms unless I had her explicit consent. So that avenue is closed.

We can demand that the person attend counseling etc but at the end of the day it's up to them, not us, to get help. Maybe they refuse or, as in my ex's case they go for a while and then say screw it, I'm tired of this and I'm not gonna do it any more.

I don't have any experience with this with a underage person, I would suppose there are restrictions on just how far a parent can go but I don't know.

So we family members live in fear, waiting and wondering when The Big One is going to happen, watching someone we love come apart. If we are lucky, the problem eventually manifests itself in a way which can make it imperative that others get involved and force the individual with the problem to get help. Or sometimes it shows up as it did in this case with horrific results.