Learn me: how to sleep

For those that pay attention to me over the years, this should be pretty patronizing in terms of background, but here goes:

Me: 175 lb 41 yrs old, workout 3x/week, very busy with work, volunteer and kids activities. Zero TV time, zero lounge time. If I have any spare time, it's for the wife, kids, truck or guitar. I typically am in the bed for 6 hours per night. That's usually fine. I have a CPAP and have felt very normal after getting one. I fall asleep laughably fast. Tunawife uses the TV at night in the bedroom, but usually my interactions with it are to first check if she's asleep and then turn it off for her. I've seen every MASH episode in two minute increments while getting dressed after I shower over the years.

Maybe 4-5 months ago I started waking up around 3 and then being restless for the remainder of the night. I'm never awake enough to get up and walk around, not wide awake eyes open, just incredibly restless. We have a nice bed, a great mattress, I have an excellent pillow, the temperature is fine.

I've tried:

Alcohol

Going to bed full

Going to bed hungry

Melatonin, (Olly SLEEP gummies, I tried up to five out of a recommended two and at best it tastes like decent gummy bears)

Skipping OTC allergy medicine

Multivitamin  (looking for any deficiencies like Magnesium)

Writing crap down in a journal

I legit have a lot on my mind and a lot on my plate, but none of that is new. I fall asleep very quickly, then sleep OK until sometime between 12-3 and then the night may as well be over for all the tossing and turning. This was the same when on a business trip, when on vacation, and when home.

The only thing I haven't tried is setting an alarm for 2am and trying a manual reset.

So, how does one sleep?

Has your diet changed recently?

If I cut out carbs and eat meat, eggs, and leafy greens my sleep changes. I sleep deeper but for a shorter duration. When I added in fasting I could only sleep for about four hours. I was rested and functioned normally (as close to normal as I get) my body just seemed to want/need less sleep.

Though that sounds like it might be different than what you're experiencing.

The_Jed said:

Has your diet changed recently?

 

 

If I cut out carbs and eat meat, eggs, and leafy greens my sleep changes. I sleep deeper but for a shorter duration. When I added in fasting I could only sleep for about four hours. I was rested and functioned normally (as close to normal as I get) my body just seemed to want/need less sleep.

 

 

Though that sounds like it might be different than what you're experiencing.

Not within that timeframe, and only mildly before that. Essentially I am more careful not to overindulge in bread or sweets. I'll pass on a donut, or eat tuna instead of a PBJ sandwich, and the change predated the sleep thing by a good long time.

Get a sleep study. I used to be the same way. Ended up getting a sleep psychologist and c-pap machine. 

I'm your same age, activity level and weight, I experienced the exact same thing during COVID. I would wake up at 2:30 to pee, then be too awake to sleep, but too tired to get up and actually do anything. Typically I would fall back asleep around 5am. 

For me, it ended up being stress related to a lot of family drama that was going on. As soon as I eliminated the drama, I could sleep through the night again. Given how busy you are, it can be very easy to not even realize how much stress you're under. That was the case for me.

yupididit said:

Get a sleep study. I used to be the same way. Ended up getting a sleep psychologist and c-pap machine. 

I have a CPAP and have already done the sleep study thing a while back.

calteg said:

I'm your same age, activity level and weight, I experienced the exact same thing during COVID. I would wake up at 2:30 to pee, then be too awake to sleep, but too tired to get up and actually do anything. Typically I would fall back asleep around 5am. 

For me, it ended up being stress related to a lot of family drama that was going on. As soon as I eliminated the drama, I could sleep through the night again. Given how busy you are, it can be very easy to not even realize how much stress you're under. That was the case for me.

On one hand, it's fairly constant. Nothing too acute. On the other hand, it could just be wearing on me. On the other hand, it isn't something I can drop generally. On the other hand, I would have expected it to change over vacation or business trip. On the other hand

Link to a flowery article of feely rubbish about sleep.  At least the view of Evelyn De Morgan's painting is not without merit.

https://aeon.co/essays/the-cure-for-insomnia-is-to-fall-in-love-with-sleep-again?utm_source=pocket_collection_story

tuna55 said:

yupididit said:

Get a sleep study. I used to be the same way. Ended up getting a sleep psychologist and c-pap machine. 

I have a CPAP and have already done the sleep study thing a while back.

How long ago? Settings and bodies change, could be due for an update.

Judging from other posts of yours, I'm going to suggest finding a better way to deal with stress, particularly family stress. As much as I despise them, might be worth talking to a counselor or therapist, if you can find a decent one. 

I'm in a similar boat, just younger, fatter, and without the cpap maChine. Asleep around 11, up at 1230 to pee, back to sleep around 2 to wake up for the day at 5. Weed helps but probably not with your job. Big thing for me now is stress though, this bathroom and the almost 8 year old toddler are really wearing me down.

In reply to tuna55 :

I pretty much could have written your post. 3:45 am is the magic hour for when the demons like to sit on my pillow. As soon as one gets a word in edgewise, they all jump in and keep me awake. It does not get better with age or retirement, sorry to say. 

Believe it or not, what has worked for the last  year is to just tell the demons ( with your inside voice) to "berkeley- off" because its the middle of the night and I am obviously are not going to do anything about you shiny happy people right now. While I still wake up in the middle of the night, this lets me get back to sleep.

I also try to go to bed with an achievement that puts me to sleep with a positive thought; as if I earned a good sleep. If it involved physical activity that left me a bit sore, so much the better. It does not have to be a monumental achievement, just something to tick off the list to create the positive-feedback loop.

I like my beer in the shop, but alcohol before sleep does not work for me. To the detriment of the wine industry, I have given up drinking anything after 6 pm. I know for a fact that helps.

I can't imagine what 8 hours of solid sleep would be like. I find that 6 hours with one wake-up, roll over, and get back to sleep is manageable and the best I can do.  Accepting that gets rid of one demon.

RevRico said:

tuna55 said:

yupididit said:

Get a sleep study. I used to be the same way. Ended up getting a sleep psychologist and c-pap machine. 

I have a CPAP and have already done the sleep study thing a while back.

How long ago? Settings and bodies change, could be due for an update.

Judging from other posts of yours, I'm going to suggest finding a better way to deal with stress, particularly family stress. As much as I despise them, might be worth talking to a counselor or therapist, if you can find a decent one. 

 

I'm in a similar boat, just younger, fatter, and without the cpap maChine. Asleep around 11, up at 1230 to pee, back to sleep around 2 to wake up for the day at 5. Weed helps but probably not with your job. Big thing for me now is stress though, this bathroom and the almost 8 year old toddler are really wearing me down.

After my experience with the doc getting my sleep apnea diagnosed, I'm handling everything myself. I have no issue with sleep apnea nor the machine as currently configured. I check regularly via a few tools I have.

We had a marriage counselor, but she fired us.

NOHOME said:

In reply to tuna55 :

I pretty much could have written your post. 3:45 am is the magic hour for when the demons like to sit on my pillow. As soon as one gets a word in edgewise, they all jump in and keep me awake. It does not get better with age or retirement, sorry to say. 

Believe it or not, what has worked for the last  year is to just tell the demons ( with your inside voice) to "berkeley- off" because its the middle of the night and I am obviously are not going to do anything about you shiny happy people right now. While I still wake up in the middle of the night, this lets me get back to sleep.

I also try to go to bed with an achievement that puts me to sleep with a positive thought; as if I earned a good sleep. If it involved physical activity that left me a bit sore, so much the better. It does not have to be a monumental achievement, just something to tick off the list to create the positive-feedback loop.

I like my beer in the shop, but alcohol before sleep does not work for me. To the detriment of the wine industry, I have given up drinking anything after 6 pm. I know for a fact that helps.

I can't imagine what 8 hours of solid sleep would be like. I find that 6 hours with one wake-up, roll over, and get back to sleep is manageable and the best I can do.  Accepting that gets rid of one demon.

Yeah I (hopefully obviously) am not drinking nightly. I merely tried having two drinks before bed a few times to see if it would help. It didn't change anything.

I get up and watch half an hour of this Old House, or Cutting Edge Engineering, and go back to bed when I feel like it.  I try not to worry about it, because if I do, it just gets worse.  

I get as much sleep as I need, but at 62, the idea of 8 hours straight is not possible.  I really believe the most important thing for me is to not get pissed off about it.

In reply to tuna55 :

Have you ever had a sleep therapist?

yupididit said:

In reply to tuna55 :

Have you ever had a sleep therapist?

No. The CPAP prescribing doc was a pulmonologist, and was a jerk and a joke.

I usually wake up around 2 to 3am, but might get back to sleep an hour or two later.  I usually sleep very lightly; I'm kind of aware of everything.

If my mind is busy and won't shut up, I'll journal what I'm thinking about so my mind thinks I've dealt with it.  It might be a list, a plan, or a heated email from me to me, to feel like it's dealt with.

Dimming lights in the evening, no caffiene after 2pm, reading in bed until I'm struggling to keep my eyes open.

Still usually wake up in the early hours, and an often at least somewhat awake.

Did the sleep clinic - no help.

Did Melatonin, Valerian, Chamomile, warm milk - nothing helps.

I eat healthy, not sedentary, gone off gluten, little to no procesed foods.  Nothing helps.

I can't help much because I'm certainly no doctor but I can lend a couple thoughts. 

It seems pretty well proven now that even if you drink alcohol, fall asleep and also stay asleep you're not getting good sleep. So I guess I'm glad you don't perceive that as working for you. 

Caffeine, I'm pretty sure, has a similar effect. Even if you're one of those people who can drink coffee right before bed and sleep, it's not as good as if caffeine weren't in your system. I also learned recently, maybe Peter Attia?, that caffeine has a long half-life and even longer quarter life so having coffee into the afternoon can certainly affect sleep. You don't mention caffeine but it's part of the routine for many people.

For me, I generally drink a lot of water throughout the day and for a while was being woken up needing to use the bathroom around the same time. I was told by a doc in my family that the act of drinking water quickly actually triggers systems in the body that you'll need to go to the bathroom. I've focused on not gulping water right before bed and rarely am woken up that way since. YMMV. It could be a placebo, could be just simply drinking less water before bed but either way that's not a common issue anymore. 

Sorry if that's a bit much but I've been thinking (and trying to learn) about sleep a lot recently. 

Indica does it for me. Without it i can count on going to bed at say 9pm and still be rolling around trying to sleep at 1am or later.  
after a little indica, i can be snoozing within minutes of my head hitting the pillow and not wake up for probably 6+ hours, then if i wake up to pee or get woken up, im back to sleeping within minutes. Typically i wake up about 5:30, fully charged and rested. 

AxeHealey said:

I can't help much because I'm certainly no doctor but I can lend a couple thoughts. 

It seems pretty well proven now that even if you drink alcohol, fall asleep and also stay asleep you're not getting good sleep. So I guess I'm glad you don't perceive that as working for you. 

Caffeine, I'm pretty sure, has a similar effect. Even if you're one of those people who can drink coffee right before bed and sleep, it's not as good as if caffeine weren't in your system. I also learned recently, maybe Peter Attia?, that caffeine has a long half-life and even longer quarter life so having coffee into the afternoon can certainly affect sleep. You don't mention caffeine but it's part of the routine for many people.

For me, I generally drink a lot of water throughout the day and for a while was being woken up needing to use the bathroom around the same time. I was told by a doc in my family that the act of drinking water quickly actually triggers systems in the body that you'll need to go to the bathroom. I've focused on not gulping water right before bed and rarely am woken up that way since. YMMV. It could be a placebo, could be just simply drinking less water before bed but either way that's not a common issue anymore. 

Sorry if that's a bit much but I've been thinking (and trying to learn) about sleep a lot recently. 

No worries, it's all good info.

I drink water a lot, but rarely right before bed and I hardly ever have to get up to pee.

I really love black coffee, but I don't drink any after noon.

Oh, and I tried Chamomile tea as well. It tastes eh, but it also didn't help at all.

I fall asleep almost instantly but if and when I have to get up to pee in the night (more often as I age) I have a very hard time going back to sleep.

What I have found works the best for me is a simple, light blocking sleep mask

The streetlights that work their way in to my window bug the hell out of me. blocking the light is the best thing I have found.

  I don't drink, I don't smoke reefer, I don't want to be sluggish in the morning because of pills. I suppose I am happy that such a simple solution works for me.

Mrs. VCH hates me.  I will go to bed at 10:45, and by the time she comes to bed at 11, I'm out cold.  

After my late 30's I started needing less sleep, I found.  I get about 6-7 hours a night now, about average I suppose for a guy in his mid 40's.  I do wake up more nights than not, but never at the same time.  Sometimes it's 12:30, sometimes it's 5AM, or any time in between.  I go pee, go back to bed, and regardless of the time, I always fall back asleep.  

The stress you are perceiving may not be "that bad", but over time it might be.  I know you...you won't cut back on anything, so I'm not sure how to A-B test that.

I did have a period back in 2018 or '19 when I woke up at night after about an hour or two of being asleep and felt my whole body shaking uncontrollably, and my heart racing.  It got so bad one night my wife called an ambulance and I went to the hospital.  They tested everything they could find, had me back for more tests, specialists, etc. and physically there was nothing wrong with my heart, brain, etc.  I started having a glass of red wine before bed to "sand the edges off", which seemed to help.  Then I realized that I was spending a lot of my evening time in the shop or office with these 6500K fluorescent bulbs and a computer screen.  Blue light, and lots of it.  And I was staying up later- sometimes past midnight.  I threw away all of those lights, and switched to ~3500K LED lights.  I made sure I was in bed before 11PM, no exceptions.  Limited the nightime computer use.  After awhile, I quit the red wine and switched to an herbal tea- I especially like Elderberry Echinacea.  So far going on 4 years with zero "attacks" like that.  

Here's the question that I didn't see asked:  You ask how does one sleep, but do you actually feel like you're not getting enough sleep?  Falling asleep during the day?  Feeling worn out?  Unable to focus?  Or do you just think you ought to be getting more sleep?  I ask because when my sleep started trailing back from 8 hours to the current 6-7, I was concerned, but I seem to be just fine with it, so I quit worrying.

And as others have said, that may be the biggest thing of all.  Hit that big red kill switch on the brain, disconnect all circuits, and deal with it when the Sun says you should.  

In reply to Trent :

I find the darker it is in the bedroom for me, the better.  We also do not have a TV or computer in the bedroom.  I think even having a TV there, even if it's off, can be a problem.  We put our phones on airplane mode at night, and mine stays downstairs.  Really the only electronics in my bedroom is a digital clock radio I got in 1991.  

NOHOME said:

In reply to tuna55 :

I pretty much could have written your post. 3:45 am is the magic hour for when the demons like to sit on my pillow. As soon as one gets a word in edgewise, they all jump in and keep me awake. It does not get better with age or retirement, sorry to say. 

Believe it or not, what has worked for the last  year is to just tell the demons ( with your inside voice) to "berkeley- off" because its the middle of the night and I am obviously are not going to do anything about you shiny happy people right now. While I still wake up in the middle of the night, this lets me get back to sleep.

I also try to go to bed with an achievement that puts me to sleep with a positive thought; as if I earned a good sleep. If it involved physical activity that left me a bit sore, so much the better. It does not have to be a monumental achievement, just something to tick off the list to create the positive-feedback loop.

I like my beer in the shop, but alcohol before sleep does not work for me. To the detriment of the wine industry, I have given up drinking anything after 6 pm. I know for a fact that helps.

I can't imagine what 8 hours of solid sleep would be like. I find that 6 hours with one wake-up, roll over, and get back to sleep is manageable and the best I can do.  Accepting that gets rid of one demon.

(quick pre-notes:  I only drink coffee first thing in the AM.  Nothing but water throughout the day except at about 3pm when I have my afternoon cup of green tea.) 

I need a book before I go to sleep. 

Wait, change that.  I need a book or an embarrassing amount of beer before I go to sleep.

ok.  Back to the book.  Tuna, your life sounds a lot like mine.  I get almost zero TV, I get plenty of exercise, and there is constantly something I am "doing".  Back when I first had kids, I began to wake up at 4am (up from the normal 6am) to get in some garage time before they woke up, but after 10 years that became the "norm" and my body (or brain) was waking me up at like midnight to 2am and would NOT let me go back to sleep until 5:30am (which is too late to do anything about). 

Much like Nohome's "demons", I found that if I absorb myself in a book that I go to sleep with a blank brain that only thinks about the world I was just immersed in (and I wont stop reading until I'm well absorbed).  In that world, the stresses (demons) of real life don't bother me and I can get a good rest and feel fresh at 4-6am the next day.  (Also like Nohome, I cant imagine what 8 hours of sleep would feel like anymore).  I often drink ginger or lemon tea with the book, but usually am reading a good while after I finish the cup.

Failing that it's a minimum of 4-liters of 5% beer. 

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

Same. Nothing with an LED of any type. 

My phone is in the living room so I have to get up to turn off the alarm.