Letting Go Of God

friedgreencorrado wrote: Well, just remember..the two are not mutually exclusive. They're actually two different questions. Theism/atheism is about belief. Does one believe a supreme being (or beings) exist? Gnosticism/agnosticism is about knowledge. Is it *possible* to know if there are beings who exist outside of the natural universe?

While a reasonably good explanation, your graph was written by an Agnostic Atheist.

If it had been written by a Gnostic Theist, it would not have said "Claims to know god exists", it would have said, "Has knowledge of the existence of God". It also would have said, "Believes God exists", instead of "Believes a god exists". Note capitalization.

Just saying...

SVreX wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: I prefer the term rational thinker....

So, the religious folks would then be "irrational thinkers", right? Don't think THAT is gonna help get away from "name calling".

I didn't say that (one might prove their case with supporting evidence one day). I said I don't go around saying I'm an atheist although my conclusions would agree with the label. I don't define myself that way because the idea that gods and superstitions are not worth thinking too hard about are just one of the things I happen to have reasoned out. If we get stuck on that one - we never get to rail on the erosion of the bill of rights or toast the supple behind of the figure skater turned bar maid.

I didn't say you did.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: I prefer the term rational thinker....

This is a bit like choosing your own job title......I once got a call from someone updating the website for our organization. They asked me what my formal job title was. I told them, "I like to think of myself as 'Chief Slayer of Dragons'," but that never ended up on the website. Regardless of what title I chose, the rest of the people knew me by a different title. I expect the same will happen with your chosen terminology

Now about that barmaid....post a picture of her so we can all raise a toast.

I prefer the term "Appalachian-American," but most folks just call me "White."

Thanks for keeping this discussion constructive. If it continues going this well maybe we'll have an election day thread next week.

(*as long as Obama wins)

Election is in 2 weeks, btw. Unless you're a democrat, in which case, the election is on the second wednesday of the week after next, per the 43rd ammendment.

Curmudgeon wrote: Same here. I always thought an agnostic was someone who was on the fence.

I called myself an agnostic for ten years (approx. 1985-1995). The first five because I didn't understand the difference, and the second five because I realized the people who would otherwise vandalize my property would leave me the berkley alone because they didn't understand the difference.

JoeyM wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: I prefer the term rational thinker....

This is a bit like choosing your own job title......I once got a call from someone updating the website for our organization. They asked me what my formal job title was. I told them, "I like to think of myself as 'Chief Slayer of Dragons'," but that never ended up on the website. Regardless of what title I chose, the rest of the people knew me by a different title. I expect the same will happen with your chosen terminology Now about that barmaid....post a picture of her so we can all raise a toast.

My point was "Stop letting the people who think you are a nut that needs to be ostracized define the label". I would have gone with "Godless Motherberkeleyer" over atheist. Atleast it does not need any explanation. Perhaps the scotch clouded my message.

No, I got your meaning. it was well stated, clear, and polite. I appreciated the sentiment, and agree with it in concept. I just don't think that trying to redefine the terms will sway any theists' opinions. They've already been taught that they should not act or think like us (Romans 12:2) We're to be viewed with suspicion.

SVreX wrote:

friedgreencorrado wrote: Well, just remember..the two are not mutually exclusive. They're actually two different questions. Theism/atheism is about belief. Does one believe a supreme being (or beings) exist? Gnosticism/agnosticism is about knowledge. Is it *possible* to know if there are beings who exist outside of the natural universe?

While a reasonably good explanation, your graph was written by an Agnostic Atheist.

I don't understand why you think that is relevant.

SVreX wrote: If it had been written by a Gnostic Theist, it would not have said "Claims to know god exists", it would have said, "Has knowledge of the existence of God". It also would have said, "Believes God exists", instead of "Believes a god exists". Note capitalization.

I also don't understand why you capitalize 'agnostic', and 'atheist'. I will admit, however..I've never been the best student of semantics.

The graph is attempting to explain a concept. Do you honestly think that a grammatical/punctuation/capitalization/whatever else "problem" contained within an expression of a concept actually invalidates the concept?

friedgreencorrado wrote:

Curmudgeon wrote: Same here. I always thought an agnostic was someone who was on the fence.

I called myself an agnostic for ten years (approx. 1985-1995). The first five because I didn't understand the difference, and the second five because I realized the people who would otherwise vandalize my property would leave me the berkley alone because *they* didn't understand the difference.

That right there is an excellent point. Telling the last pair of Jehovah's Witnesses that wandered into my shop that I was an agnostic was the most effective way of ridding myself of them I've found. I think if I had said I was an atheist they'd still be here trying to save me (2 years later). I don't particularly like to pigeonhole myself with a term like 'agnostic' but labels like 'freethinker' will be viewed with equal suspicion. I think we godless heathens are just doomed to be looked down upon by the believers out there. So be it; I'll survive.

Random ADD thoughts:

My motorcycle buddy actually did come around and ask about going riding again, so maybe he's not as terrified of my doomed soul as I first thought.

Giant Purple Snorklewhacker is a guy I need to sit and listen to rant on about random topics. You sir, are a cool dude with a mastery of the English language.

College football as a religion: I live in Pennsylvania. Not only do I have no interest in Penn State football, I find the Nittany Lions fans some of the most annoying sports fans on the planet. You'd think I had three heads when people ask me about the latest game or the Sandusky debacle and I announce I couldn't care less.

I find it interesting to compare, via the numerous automotive message boards I waste time on, the percentage of religious/non-religious folks. It's not hard to do when you stray into the off topic areas. 1960s Ford pickups = loaded with Christians. Racing forums = lean agnostic/atheist. BMW = non-religious. Porsche = non-religious. Adventure motorcyclists = fair smattering of both, but may lean more to the non-religious side. This site = seems to be a pretty equal balance, and is one I can debate and digest topics such as this with little fear people will freak out/try to save me/burn me in effigy.

In reply to ddavidv:

Tell me about it. My g/f generally couldn't care less about sports - EXCEPT Penn State football (she's an alumni). Yesterday she had to retrieve me when my GT6 broke down going to my house. You'd think the world was going to end since she was missing the first half...

I had to work yesterday, there was a USC home game. You'd think the world was coming to an end judging by the amount of moaning and groaning from my co workers who didn't get to go or to watch on TV. Seems Marcus Lattimore broke his leg? and everyone was hollerig about this being a career ending injury, it was going to wreck his future etc. Sorry he got hurt, but waitadamnminute: isn't he in college to prepare for a career? Not necessarily in football?

friedgreencorrado wrote:

SVreX wrote:

friedgreencorrado wrote: Well, just remember..the two are not mutually exclusive. They're actually two different questions. Theism/atheism is about belief. Does one believe a supreme being (or beings) exist? Gnosticism/agnosticism is about knowledge. Is it *possible* to know if there are beings who exist outside of the natural universe?

While a reasonably good explanation, your graph was written by an Agnostic Atheist.

I don't understand why you think that is relevant.

SVreX wrote: If it had been written by a Gnostic Theist, it would not have said "Claims to know god exists", it would have said, "Has knowledge of the existence of God". It also would have said, "Believes God exists", instead of "Believes a god exists". Note capitalization.

I also don't understand why you capitalize 'agnostic', and 'atheist'. I will admit, however..I've never been the best student of semantics. The graph is attempting to explain a concept. Do you honestly think that a grammatical/punctuation/capitalization/whatever else "problem" contained within an expression of a concept actually invalidates the concept?

I said it was a reasonably good explanation. You had explained the concept well. Do you want a biscuit or something?

I capitalized 'agnostic' and 'atheist' because your chart did. Duh.

It's relevant because it is only accurate to an agnostic atheist (uncapitalized intentionally). To a gnostic theist, it inaccurately expresses their position. It expresses what an agnostic atheist THINKS their position is.

SVreX wrote:

friedgreencorrado wrote:

SVreX wrote:

friedgreencorrado wrote: Well, just remember..the two are not mutually exclusive. They're actually two different questions. Theism/atheism is about belief. Does one believe a supreme being (or beings) exist? Gnosticism/agnosticism is about knowledge. Is it *possible* to know if there are beings who exist outside of the natural universe?

While a reasonably good explanation, your graph was written by an Agnostic Atheist.

I don't understand why you think that is relevant.

SVreX wrote: If it had been written by a Gnostic Theist, it would not have said "Claims to know god exists", it would have said, "Has knowledge of the existence of God". It also would have said, "Believes God exists", instead of "Believes a god exists". Note capitalization.

I also don't understand why you capitalize 'agnostic', and 'atheist'. I will admit, however..I've never been the best student of semantics. The graph is attempting to explain a concept. Do you honestly think that a grammatical/punctuation/capitalization/whatever else "problem" contained within an expression of a concept actually invalidates the concept?

I said it was a reasonably good explanation. You had explained the concept well. Do you want a biscuit or something?

You know..you're right. That was kind of a knee-jerk reaction on my part, and I apologize for it.

No sweat. Keep up the good work!

ddavidv wrote: Random ADD thoughts: My motorcycle buddy actually did come around and ask about going riding again, so maybe he's not as terrified of my doomed soul as I first thought.

I've found that a lot of folks seem to have to deal with the initial shock. You've heard that "..you're an ATHEIST?!?! But you're such a good person!" stuff before, right? Cool people eventually deal with it.

ddavidv wrote: Giant Purple Snorklewhacker is a guy I need to sit and listen to rant on about random topics. You sir, are a cool dude with a mastery of the English language.

Bah. I've been an ape with a keyboard since 1995, and I haven't written "Hamlet" yet. GPS, on the other hand..we all gotta go drinking together one day.

ddavidv wrote: College football as a religion: I live in Pennsylvania. Not only do I have no interest in Penn State football, I find the Nittany Lions fans some of the most annoying sports fans on the planet. You'd think I had three heads when people ask me about the latest game or the Sandusky debacle and I announce I couldn't care less. I find it interesting to compare, via the numerous automotive message boards I waste time on, the percentage of religious/non-religious folks. It's not hard to do when you stray into the off topic areas. 1960s Ford pickups = loaded with Christians. Racing forums = lean agnostic/atheist. BMW = non-religious. Porsche = non-religious. Adventure motorcyclists = fair smattering of both, but may lean more to the non-religious side. This site = seems to be a pretty equal balance, and is one I can debate and digest topics such as this with little fear people will freak out/try to save me/burn me in effigy.

One thing I've noticed (that actually may be on topic) is that the younger the average age of the forum, the more ag/ath/"none of the above" folks seem to be on it. I thought it was just my imagination, but then that study from Pew came out. I really don't think that study means that there are a lot more agnostics & atheists, though. I think it's actually the increase of the "spiritual, but not religious" thing. I'm cool with that..the ones I know in person all sound like curtis73 (BTW, nice post, Curtis). Making it personal, and inclusive (dare I say "humanist"?) rather than exclusive.

So..FGC, GPS and c73 walk into a bar. The bartender says, "What is this? A joke?"

friedgreencorrado wrote:

ddavidv wrote: Giant Purple Snorklewhacker is a guy I need to sit and listen to rant on about random topics. You sir, are a cool dude with a mastery of the English language.

Bah. I've been an ape with a keyboard since 1995, and I haven't written "Hamlet" yet. GPS, on the other hand..we all gotta go drinking together one day.

We should just go racing at the same venue. It is the same thing as drinking only with something do during the day.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

friedgreencorrado wrote:

ddavidv wrote: Giant Purple Snorklewhacker is a guy I need to sit and listen to rant on about random topics. You sir, are a cool dude with a mastery of the English language.

Bah. I've been an ape with a keyboard since 1995, and I haven't written "Hamlet" yet. GPS, on the other hand..we all gotta go drinking together one day.

We should just go racing at the same venue. It is the same thing as drinking only with something do during the day.

Only if we all go Vintage or Spec Something Or Other. Dude, I don't have the dough to keep up with that monster in your avatar.

But weren't you thinking of changing classes anyway?

I've already got the Spec E30. Ball's in your court, guys.

ddavidv wrote: I've already got the Spec E30. Ball's in your court, guys.

Well, I can run GTS4 or 5... or fill it with 500lbs of gravel and go GTS3. That puts me at the same venue anyway... FGC needs a spec E30.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

ddavidv wrote: I've already got the Spec E30. Ball's in your court, guys.

Well, I can run GTS4 or 5... or fill it with 500lbs of gravel and go GTS3. That puts me at the same venue anyway... FGC needs a spec E30.

I was actually looking at them before I got laid off.

My good friends Jonny and Andy can fix you right up at most any east coast venue: Drive Gear race car rentals

NSFW and may piss you off. I don't care though, it makes me LOL.

Greetings from Jah