I’m doing some research for another book and would like some input/insight from those of you who do a lot of HPDE instructing. Todays’ question: If you could have known just one thing that you know now when you started instructing, what would that be?
Ross_Bentley wrote: I’m doing some research for another book and would like some input/insight from those of you who do a lot of HPDE instructing. Todays’ question: If you could have known just one thing that you know now when you started instructing, what would that be?
Is this really Ross Bentley? We have met at a number of NJ and Genessee Valley pre-season "tune-ups".
My simple blurb answer:
The point-by is holding students and instructors from becoming better, safer, faster drivers.
The long diatribe to hopefully douse some of the flames I am sure will follow that revelation:
I instructed for years and drove probably 30 to 50 days a year all over the NE since '99, did time attack, etc... but I finally took the W2W plunge in late 2010. I never much cared for asking permission to pass on a race track since I didn't have to bother on the interstate on my way to the track. Now, after two seasons of club racing - I am absolutely convinced I was right all along. My official, experienced opine is:
I recommend every instructor out there go to BMWCCA (or other) race school even if they never plan to go racing. Get sharper, evolve. The evils of the point-by will suddenly become obvious to everyone. It builds the false notion of security and hampers people from building a 360˚ view of their world and properly reacting to it. No one above novice group should have the expectation that they can control traffic with their finger. It is dangerous to allow people to develop speed without awareness. With the differing speeds at HPDE these days from a GT3 RS, a Miata or full blown racing cars all sharing the same potential real estate at corner entry - it is madness to allow "advanced" drivers the luxury of not having to leave room or even pay attention until the next time they feel comfortable. It is a lazy concession to either the insurance company or people who have never experienced race traffic as it should be making the rules. Send the people to race school and you eliminate one half of the problem. Hire better lawyers to deal with the other half :)
Nobody else? Really?
In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker: Looks like it's just you and me! I'm hoping that many instructors are out doing what they do this weekend: instructing... and that we'll get more input later in the week.
Thanks for your input. The point-by issue is a great discussion point, as I don't think it's a cut and dry decision and depends on the level of DE.
Ross_Bentley wrote: If you could have known just one thing that you know now when you started instructing, what would that be?
Getting on the track for "free" is still really expensive.
MCarp22 wrote:Ross_Bentley wrote: If you could have known just one thing that you know now when you started instructing, what would that be?Getting on the track for "free" is still really expensive.
True dat!
Not instructing here but get my track time for free. I spend more in consumables for the car and me during a weekend than the entry fees.
For broke people like me that can't afford to go get a comp license, I think point bys are good. I know that I check my mirrors constantly because I am a slower car and am basically forced into learning how to manage traffic. The progressive point by system that is used in NASA-SE from DE2 to DE3 to DE4 I think is a good way of learning that on-track traffic management.
you may HATE the point by idea/system ... but for a driver of a WAY underpowered car that corners pretty darn well the point by is truly a needed thing and while you're at it please remember that after a point by teach the passE that sometimes the passER needs some help getting by ...
the example always used in drivers meetings is to point to a corvette driver ( has to be a good sport about it ) and remind them that if they see a miata etc behind them .... there's a reason they're there .... LIFT let them by and then see where the little, no power car is faster
in other words the point by is very necessary/needed .. the PDX/HPDE folk AREN'T racing ... yes we should be watching our mirrors but passing isn't allowed through the corners
wbjones wrote: the example always used in drivers meetings is to point to a corvette driver ( has to be a good sport about it ) and remind them that if they see a miata etc behind them .... there's a reason they're there .... LIFT let them by and then see where the little, no power car is faster
Man, I swear you have been in front of the same classroom instructor as I have, because that is the exact same cars that are mentioned.
that's always the "joke" at the drivers meetings for every event I've ever attended .... SCCA, NASA, TrackDaze ... etc ...
One thing I've learned, and still have a hard time with, is don't be afraid to be stern with the student if they are being extremely timid. I had one student that I couldn't get to brake late enough. It was so early that I was waving my arm out the passenger window to the instructor/student behind to back off until the next passing zone. I ended up switching with another instructor and he was able to get through to my student. After discussing with him what was going on, I learned that I was being too easy going with the student. He did much better.
So I learned 2 things. Don't be afraid to be a bit stern or forceful with the student (and discuss why after the session why you had to be that way). Also, sometimes the student and instructor's teaching method don't match. See if you can swap with another instructor for a session or two. It may work out better for both the student and instructor, and everyone is happier. Just make sure the student knows why the switch is happening and that they enjoy themselves, and are learning. That's what they are there for!
wbjones wrote: you may HATE the point by idea/system ... but for a driver of a WAY underpowered car that corners pretty darn well the point by is truly a needed thing and while you're at it please remember that after a point by teach the passE that sometimes the passER needs some help getting by ... the example always used in drivers meetings is to point to a corvette driver ( has to be a good sport about it ) and remind them that if they see a miata etc behind them .... there's a reason they're there .... LIFT let them by and then see where the little, no power car is faster in other words the point by is very necessary/needed .. the PDX/HPDE folk AREN'T racing ... yes we should be watching our mirrors but passing isn't allowed through the corners
My entire point is that you DO NOT NEED PERMISSION. Pass him in the corner. No kidding. It works. I'm on a track with 5 classes - specE30 is almost 10 sec a lap slower but you know what - they don't hold me up and I don't mess up their battles either. We co-exist.
That is my whole point - the point-by is like a teddy bear. It's not real comfort. Get over it. Learn to work the traffic. Everyone will be better off in the long run. I don't mean we should throw people to the wolves - we should be teaching 360 awareness and appropriate response from the minute people know where the flag stations are... it should be part of the program.
Anti-stance wrote:wbjones wrote: the example always used in drivers meetings is to point to a corvette driver ( has to be a good sport about it ) and remind them that if they see a miata etc behind them .... there's a reason they're there .... LIFT let them by and then see where the little, no power car is fasterMan, I swear you have been in front of the same classroom instructor as I have, because that is the exact same cars that are mentioned.
Imagine a world where you and he leave each other room so you don't have to be single file. He isn't racing you - you are not racing him - you are just allowing each other room to pass everywhere all the time because you are aware of each other. Like you would on i80 - except both of you are paying attention and not talking on the phone,
That world exists at test/tune, open track and racing venues all over the country all the time. It just has not been embraced by the mainstream avenues for HPDE yet (yet being an optimistic word ... from a pessimist).
In reply to Ross_Bentley: Apologies for the singleminded point-by threadjack... it has been a burr in my shorts for a long time. I'll pipe down in the hopes the rest of the instructor crowd shows up when they return to work on Monday.
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: My entire point is that you DO NOT NEED PERMISSION. Pass him in the corner. No kidding. It works. I'm on a track with 5 classes - specE30 is almost 10 sec a lap slower but you know what - they don't hold me up and I don't mess up their battles either. We co-exist. That is my whole point - the point-by is like a teddy bear. It's not real comfort. Get over it. Learn to work the traffic. Everyone will be better off in the long run. I don't mean we should throw people to the wolves - we should be teaching 360 awareness and appropriate response from the minute people know where the flag stations are... it should be part of the program.
that's racing ... not PDX .... totally different ... I do pass in corners with NASA TT or HPDE 4 ...
you pass in the corners in SCCA PDX at any level and I pretty sure you'll be ask/told to leave ... passing in the corners is great ... assuming that everyone is on board ... w2w=yes, PDX=no
anything less than advanced ( really should be a class called super advanced) needs to have point-bys ... in NASA-SE at HPDE level 3 and above passing in the corners ( with point-by) is ok ...
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:wbjones wrote: you may HATE the point by idea/system ... but for a driver of a WAY underpowered car that corners pretty darn well the point by is truly a needed thing and while you're at it please remember that after a point by teach the passE that sometimes the passER needs some help getting by ... the example always used in drivers meetings is to point to a corvette driver ( has to be a good sport about it ) and remind them that if they see a miata etc behind them .... there's a reason they're there .... LIFT let them by and then see where the little, no power car is faster in other words the point by is very necessary/needed .. the PDX/HPDE folk AREN'T racing ... yes we should be watching our mirrors but passing isn't allowed through the cornersMy entire point is that you DO NOT NEED PERMISSION. Pass him in the corner. No kidding. It works. I'm on a track with 5 classes - specE30 is almost 10 sec a lap slower but you know what - they don't hold me up and I don't mess up their battles either. We co-exist. That is my whole point - the point-by is like a teddy bear. It's not real comfort. Get over it. Learn to work the traffic. Everyone will be better off in the long run. I don't mean we should throw people to the wolves - we should be teaching 360 awareness and appropriate response from the minute people know where the flag stations are... it should be part of the program.
Ii understand your point.but I think a de 1 student has too much on their plate for that, the group my de 2 class got put in with this Saturday was. barely. Apae of recognizing that another car was behind them much less recognizing a potential overtaking outside the designated passing zones, less regulation in that case would probably have resulted I some seriously mangled cars, In the case on the NASA events I attend the distinction between de2and de3 is exactly what you are referring to and I think it happens at the appropriate stage of awareness and confidence in the student,
itsarebuild wrote: Ii understand your point.but I think a de 1 student has too much on their plate for that, the group my de 2 class got put in with this Saturday was. barely. Apae of recognizing that another car was behind them much less recognizing a potential overtaking outside the designated passing zones, less regulation in that case would probably have resulted I some seriously mangled cars, In the case on the NASA events I attend the distinction between de2and de3 is exactly what you are referring to and I think it happens at the appropriate stage of awareness and confidence in the student,
I was pretty clear to say anyone above the novice group.
I think the reasons why people think it is risky is they themselves (instructors) by and large are a product of the system they instruct for and have not had to learn the skills themselves.
Most instructors today started in HPDE, went thru the progression and then went to ITS. Some go racing, most don't. I recommend that every instructor go to racing school. That is all. I'd make it a qualification and I'd include it in the process of ITS so they get it it as phase two. Who could argue that instructors should not have additional skills? Then, watch what happens. No one ever wants to go back to point-bys after you have gained a comfort level with traffic management just like no one ever puts training wheels back on a bicycle after they have mastered balance.
There are groups within BMWCCA who are starting to do this type of thing in the intermediate and advanced groups already. They do not have a mass of carnage. I think they will end up with better drivers and more students - more financial success as a result.
DISCLAIMER: By "point-by" I mean as control over the track not a suggestion for safe passage - I point to other race cars all the time as a means of communication - e.g. "I see you and won't slam the door if you go left" BUT I don't expect them to obey. It is just communication in lieu of eye contact.
Uhhhh, slight threadjack because I have never been on track, but WTF is a point-by?
Ross_Bentley wrote: I’m doing some research for another book and would like some input/insight from those of you who do a lot of HPDE instructing. Todays’ question: If you could have known just one thing that you know now when you started instructing, what would that be?
That the basics of vehicle dynamics are the same for all cars. I race a Datsun 510 and instruct in a MINI Justa Cooper. I've never driven a car on track with more than 115hp. I was very reluctant to have students with high horse power cars and the club I teach for is very good at teaming up instructors and students with similar cars. Of course they can't always make it perfect and over the years I've had my share of Vette's and the like. After a while it dawned on me that there is no difference other than getting to the corners quicker and figuring out what line that peticular car likes.
Before the first session, ask questions:
Verify the student's experience, and what they were driving.
How fresh is the brake fluid, what pads are installed front and rear, look at the tires, check the pressures yourself, with your good gauge.
Find out what their objectives are.
Are they there with the other 4 guys w/ C6 Corvettes, and is there a plan to determine supremacy of any particular driver?
At this point we get in the car and I go over how we'll communicate. I use a Chatterbox communicator and a combination of verbal and visual cues.
Left hand extended near the dash, flat, palm down as though depressing the throttle, sort of a patting gesture accompanied w/ "Smoothly feed in some throttle" and "more, more, more or less, less, less"
Left hand extended near the dash, make a fist at the rate you'd like brakes applied. Verbal cue : : "Ok, squeeze the brakes on... Now...brake, brake, Brake, BRAKE, BRAAAAKE!"
Left hand extended near the dash, flat, palm toward me like a fish. Indicating to position the car farther to the left or right on the track.
I explain that historically, getting brake application and release up to track driving levels is a challenge, and that we'll be concentrating on that. Entering corners with a settled car at correct speed is the #1 thing that will facilitate progress.
Then I give my very short speech thusly; "Keep your eyes up; KEEP YOUR EYES UP. I'm a actual race car driver in a fast car, and I have this on a label in the middle of my steering wheel. Keep them up - how fast you can lap is based on how quickly you acquire and process information. Eyes all the way up costs nothing and makes driving fast possible"..."Lifting never fixes anything, unless you've spun. In that case, "WHEN YOU SPIN, BOTH FEET IN". Do you understand both of these points? I'm happy to clarify and expand on anything you don't understand. Good? Ok - last thing; Don't try to impress me, because you can't, and don't try to scare me, because I'm already terrified"
Then I check ergonomics, and verify the driver doesn't have any physical or equipment issues that could hamper control.
Seriously - I had a guy in a C6 Corvette 2 days ago who was finishing braking and turning in - coasting out of gear - then letting out the clutch. I explained that we needed to tighten up the braking/downshift/neutral throttle/turn-in/roll throttle in sequence and at minimum, absolutely have to have the clutch re-engaged before turn in. he just couldn't do it, and it ruined a session because the suspension was unsettled at turn entry everywhere. It turned out it was shoes. he put his driving shoes on and ~poof~ dropped like 7 seconds. And, because I'd explained WHY it mattered rather than just telling him to do it - he got it.
When time is tight, give orders. Then, if it's a short explanation say why on the next straight. Otherwise do so on the debrief after the session. ie. "It's not that your tires suck, it's that the car is unsettled right as you're trying to subject the tires to maximum side force because you're turning in and dumping the clutch with no throttle fed in" ..."Ahhhh, I see"
Make a plan for every session and stick to it:
Session 1 - observe the driver's habits, explain the line and a few key visual cues that will help the driver where it matters most. You know exactly what's on the other side of that blind rise, and can keep it pinned all the way over the top. The student may benefit from "point the car at that little tree top visible over that blind rise, and don't lift". Work on the basics of firm, decisive brake application and release, gear selection, throttle for car balance, and emphasizing consistent turn in, apex and finish points.
The next session is dependent on what's learned above. If the basics are solid, let the speed increase, and make sure the student understands that as you talk them down to faster times that (unless they're actually threshold braking) much firmer and more decisive braking will need to happen, and that the line will go from being something you try to stay on to something YOU MUST stay on. Reinforce the idea of driving your own line as they start running down other cars. ie, "Don't follow that Miata's line - he's spending all his attention worrying about the Corvette filling his mirrors". Once the pass is made: "You're around them now - keep driving the pace that got you around them - don't let it ratchet up"
Raise your voice if necessary:
I suggested that he dial it back a bit and that we take a few "Line reinforcement laps" to end the session. So be proactive in being in control. This was the first time on of my students had ever gotten in what could have potentially been a genuinely dangerous and bad situation, and I probably learned more from it than they did.
Ranger50 wrote: Uhhhh, slight threadjack because I have never been on track, but WTF is a point-by?
It means that a faster car held up behind a slower car is only allowed to pass in designated passing zones, and THEN if and only if the driver of the car in front has indicated his awareness/permission by pointing to the particular side he wants to be passed on.
BTW - the WDC region SCCA PDX event on Summit Point only used zones for the beginner group. Intermediate/advanced/Instructor and TT were "pass anywhere w/ point by".
In the case of my intermediate student, if we were behind anyone who was slow w/ the point, I'd have him fill their mirrors a bit which resulted in a wave quickly.
I'm on the fence regarding the benefit of point to pass. Racers obviously are working to pass, constantly, and have the situational awareness to be cognizant of their 360. An intermediate student in a high HP car who's on an unfamiliar circuit, and therefore driving reactively rather than from references may well be so close to the limits of their personal bandwidth that they wouldn't know that another car was inside or outside in a corner 'til there was contact.
I think the way NASA handles the gradual freeing-up of passing rules as one ascends their ladder-system of events is good. Start w/ an instructor and tight passing zones @ HPDE1. Progress from HPDE4, pass anywhere w/ point into TT, pass anywhere w/ or w/o point, and get a comp license where you stuff and/or block everyone, everywhere and constantly.
motomoron wrote: I think the way NASA handles the gradual freeing-up of passing rules as one ascends their ladder-system of events is good. Start w/ an instructor and tight passing zones @ HPDE1. Progress from HPDE4, pass anywhere w/ point into TT, pass anywhere w/ or w/o point, and get a comp license where you stuff and/or block everyone, everywhere and constantly.
Makes the most sense to me.
Back to the training wheels analogy. Most people didn't just hop on a bike and go around the block without some sort of help.
I have nothing to add to the discussion but I just wanted to say that my hat is off to those of you who do this. It would scare the crap out of me to get in a car with a complete stranger who has no idea what they are doing and try and talk them through going faster.
Thanks
I have done a bit of instructing, but not as much experience as others. I am a fan of starting people out with point by's and certain defined "open passing" zones that open up as skills improve. New students need to be able to first learn to drive the track (where it goes, where the corner workers are) first, drive their car second, and drive traffic last. Point by's help control the amount of new things a driver needs to work on to start.
A few other things I'd like to ad:
Couch instruction to students in "Do's" not "Don'ts". Our brains tend to leave out the "don't" modifier and just focus on the action. So, instead of saying something like, "Don't lift" try saying it as "go to a neutral throttle". Instead of saying, "don't stare at the apex" say, "focus on your track-out point".
Plan before every session what you are going to work on. Keep everything simple and focused so that they do not get overloaded.
Teach your students early on to RELAX. They will be safer, learn more, and have more fun if they relax. Teach them to pick one or two points on the track (usually long straits) where every time they come to them they take a couple deep breaths, flex their fingers, and do a quick check of their car temp and oil pressure. Teaching them early to pick their eyes up also helps them relax a lot.
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: I was pretty clear to say anyone above the novice group. Most instructors today started in HPDE, went thru the progression and then went to ITS. Some go racing, most don't. I recommend that every instructor go to racing school.That is all. I'd make it a qualification and I'd include it in the process of ITS so they get it it as phase two. Who could argue that instructors should not have additional skills? Then, watch what happens. No one ever wants to go back to point-bys after you have gained a comfort level with traffic management just like no one ever puts training wheels back on a bicycle after they have mastered balance. There are groups within BMWCCA who are starting to do this type of thing in the intermediate and advanced groups already. They do not have a mass of carnage. I think they will end up with better drivers and more students - more financial success as a result. DISCLAIMER: By "point-by" I mean as control over the track not a suggestion for safe passage - I point to other race cars all the time as a means of communication - e.g. "I see you and won't slam the door if you go left" BUT I don't expect them to obey. It is just communication in lieu of eye contact.
re. the bolded above ..... I totally agree with you about comp school... though not everyone can afford a racing school... I know I can't .. at least one that provides the car and the instruction .... neither can I afford a "race car" .. it's all I can do to keep the a-x/TT car doing it's thing ...
as far as what BMWCCA is doing, I see no problem with there being separate groups that allow no point-by passing or do it the way we do here in NASA-SE we do it with a large yellow 4 on the back of the car that is willing to be passed without pointing ... in our case not everyone in DE 3 runs with the 4 on the back ... can make for some interesting situations on track..( a non-4 car can pass a 4 car but can't be passed unless he points ) but it is one of the requirements for moving on to TT ( at least as I understand it ) (lopracer can jump in here to clarify)
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