Mac or PC, a GRM perspective

In reply to FlightService:

The only bit I'd disagree with is the bit about Win7 being a stop gap. It might only be Vista.1, but it's actually stable and works rather well. For me, it has replaced XP as the Windows system of choice on all home machines but one (which pretty much has to run XP due to driver issues) and I'm using it on the work machine, too. It's been very stable on the work machine (a Bootcamp'd Mac Pro) and the only reboots I get on this is when MS patch day comes around.

Not that I'm trying to dissuade you from getting a Mac .

SupraWes wrote: I heard a really good explanation of MAC's on a podcast yesterday. "What you want to do is either very simple, or requires the use of the command line"

Fixed that for ya' .

Taiden wrote:

z31maniac wrote:

DrBoost wrote: I find it harder to keep up with the latest release of windows, different service pacs, and the latest itteration of Office.

I checked the "Automatically update" box, haven't had a problem with it in nearly 2 years of Win 7.

This is an unacceptable option if you are constantly switching between operating systems. This is a point against Macs though because if you have a PC you would never do this. It's a major pet peeve to me that every time I restart (when auto update is on) there is always some stupid like pack of updates to install that takes between 5 minutes and an hour. It's more of a point against total release quality. Why is it that Apple can provide a more stable and reliable operating system with 1/50th of the updates? I'm tempted to delve into that but it would be OT

They don't.

When over 90% of the world uses Windows, that makes it a much bigger target for hackers. More attemps = more patches necessary.

If that same sort of concentration from the hackers were leveled towards OSX, you'd see the same update frequency.

Use the "i want to be the minority so nobody pays attention to my computer" card, not the "More updates must mean E36 M3tier OS" card.

For the record, i'm thinking about a Mac myself. I'm just unsure if i can give up the "tried and true" that i've been using for over a decade with not one issue.

I can see reasons why Mac is the way to go, i just haven't had any personal experiences to push me away from PC.

FlightService wrote: Software (aside from my engineering stuff) Mac has most of it opensource so I am happy. EveryMac.com has stuff about every mac model, I wonder if that name is just a coincidence? I spoke to our most anti-Apple hardcore PC guy today and he agrees with me. Windows 8 isn't going to cut it, and 7 is a stop gap. Given MicroSoft's history of vaporware for the first 2 version after a new OS comes out that leaves us three options. #1 Limp XP for another 10 years until Windows 10 comes out (most unlikely scenario given past performance and updates required) #2 Go to Linux (don't want to tinker forever to get it right and not as non-nerd friendly) #3 Go to Mac. We both agreed that Mac was the logical answer. To the point my employer is investigating the situation. I found a laptop with Win7 for the wife. I will get a little Mac to get my toes wet and go from there. Any finally words? I think we can put this one to bed. Thanks guys.

How does everyone seem to know details on Windows 8 but me?

you can download it for free in beta for now...

i'm using it and its guts are noticably refined advancement of win7.

I wouldn't give Flightservice's screed much heed, tho... The major growing pain was Vista because of new driver and virtualisation models and the abandoning of several legacy technologies. (isa support was still possible in XP, certain 16-bit technologies no longer work, complete re-write of sound engine from the general wdm to uaa virtualisation, .NET integration, DRM integration, new boot manager, disc burning engine, new driver archetecture that had to run beside the old one....)

That last one was the same instability issue that came when 2000 came replacing the win95/98 legacies.

Basically, after servicepack 2, Vista is mostly rock solid. Windows 7 is not a major leap, and is closer to a sibling version of Vista, the guts under the hood are largely the same, and updates for 7 are usually implemented byte-directly on Vista as well now.

Windows 8 is also not a major hardward shift, but there is a major design shift toward touch interface use. While its installed in Vista and 7, win8 will use it extensively from login. (using the mouse to simulate for those without a touchscreen)

I like Windows 7. It took a while to get me off of Windows XP, but Vista finally did it.

SupraWes wrote: I heard a really good explanation of MAC's on a podcast yesterday. "What you want to do is either very simple, or utterly impossible"

I'd like to know what exactly is impossible on a Mac. Even running windows on a Mac is a breeze. Kind of makes the whole thing a moot point.

In reply to Taiden:

i'll give you just 2 things:

1 trying to burn backups of picture-files being managed by i-photo hidden in virtualisation

2 programming a mouse that has more than 2 buttons.

Expose and Spaces are all programmable to the extra mouse buttons, but I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to program to them. This can be found in the Expose & Spaces section of System Preferences.

The iPhoto Library is a single item that is very portable. If it's too large for a single DVD you can split it up into multiple archives with an archival tool. Generally it's best to keep it in this format as it maintains all backups of originals, any rating, faces, places, or whatever that you may have done.

That said, if you specifically need to extract the individual files so you just have a large folder containing all photos, you can right click (control click) on the iPhoto Library, go to Show Package Contents, and all your photos will be there in folder format. If you feel daring, a simple Automater script should sort them pretty much any way you want.

But even simpler, can't you just export the whole library from iPhoto using the export function?

I'll agree that Windows 7 is pretty stable for a typical "not-yet-ready-for-release-but-we'll-let-our-paying-customers-do-our-product-testing" Microsoft release. Still it falls far short of the efficiency and superlative utility of Ubuntu Linux.

In reply to Taiden:

the response of a mac-fan:

"Why do you want to do that, anyway?"

;p

1988RedT2 wrote: I'll agree that Windows 7 is pretty stable for a typical "not-yet-ready-for-release-but-we'll-let-our-paying-customers-do-our-product-testing" Microsoft release. Still it falls far short of the efficiency and superlative utility of Ubuntu Linux.

I installed windows 7 on Monday on the computer I'm using right now. I wiped it yesterday and put Ubuntu back on. I just didn't feel safe and it was a long installation/update session just so I could watch netflix on it. Windows also decided it needed a couple inaccessible drive partitions for who knows what and that really ate into my SSD space.

60GB SSD

I had ~22GB left over after windows 7 loaded and I installed Firefox. ~10GB of the used space was for partitions I couldn't access or remove (win7 won't load without it).

I have 49.5GB free with Ubuntu and all of the included applications - I haven't done any trimming yet. I don't think I will.

I also have a 320GB eSATA drive for media and whatnot.

madmallard wrote: In reply to Taiden: the response of a mac-fan: "Why do you want to do that, anyway?" ;p

I hope I didn't reply in that way. If I did, I should probably reconsider my life. LOL

I have Windows 7 on my work system. I am un-impressed, I don't hate it, but it has done nothing to get me to that "ah-ha, that's cool" moment. I have had the blue screen of death before (which I was told wasn't supposed to be possible.) The upside is that it restarted itself automatically, didn't lock up. (Here's to lowered expectations)

We have had numerous issues on compatibility with Lotus Notes (I hate it but it's what we have to use) and other system issues that didn't work due to Microsoft's "you pay us to trouble shoot our problems" business model.

I found Vista to be a non-starter for what we do.

Microsoft is trying to go to an Android-tablet style interface. Great for the family web stuff but W8 isn't getting good reviews from any of our IT camp (1/3 XP fans, 1/3 W7 fans, and 1/3 Mac fans)

I have a Lenovo K1 tablet running Android 3.1, it is ranked as one of the best tablets for the money. Still doesn't compare to my desktop. I find it to be a great personal unit, but not for work.

So if W8 is going toward the Android style interface that is double bad.

So I am back to Mac.

On a side note I will probably do a Hacintosh. I have found a few laptops that don't require anything special to run OS X

By recommendation of my IT guys I will purchase an extra HDD and just swap.

Easy peasy

In reply to Taiden:

;p without realising it, you did essentially.

"Expose and Spaces are all programmable to the extra mouse buttons." We weren't trying to mess with OSX ui. We were trying to get a 7 button mouse to behave like it did in Windows under various programs. OSX wouldn't acknowledge the additional buttons existed in any meaningful way.

In Windows, the logitech mouse was plugged in once, detected once, and behavior could be set in the programs themselves, or in the mouse's control panel. OSX's mouse panel equivalent has pretty much no features by comparison or even showed the additional buttons, nor a program-by-program option.

"The iPhoto Library is a single item that is very portable. If it's too large for a single DVD you can split it up into multiple archives with an archival tool."

I wanted to burn a disc of picture files. Not all the files, not an archive, not an image, neither of which anyone else can use once its on the disc being proprietary.

"if you specifically need to extract the individual files so you just have a large folder containing all photos, you can right click (control click) on the iPhoto Library, go to Show Package Contents, and all your photos will be there in folder format

But even simpler, can't you just export the whole library from iPhoto using the export function? "

When attempting your first suggestion, since the files -aren't- in a folder they're nested in an image, the disc burning program doesnt like that.

And exporting the library in iPhoto renders most of the features in iPhoto null unless you keep both an iPhoto archive AND export it after every session of use. Remember, Iphoto edits are project-based non destructive, so every flip/rotate and redeye reduction isnt' actually saved to a file, its stored in a profile for that pic.

In windows, from ANY filemanager window, I drag the picture files i want into the burning program thats open, or the burning program has its own finder.

And no nesting everything into a proprietary hidden library that may or may not work with the paradigm of other program's use of the OS.

In reply to FlightService:

Lotus notes? Is it 1989 again?

Otto Maddox wrote: In reply to FlightService: Lotus notes? Is it 1989 again?

I use Lotus Notes. A 2006 build of it, actually.

On..... XP.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: I use Lotus Notes. A 2006 build of it, actually.

My sincerest condolences.

madmallard wrote: In reply to Taiden: ;p without realising it, you did essentially. "Expose and Spaces are all programmable to the extra mouse buttons." We weren't trying to mess with OSX ui. We were trying to get a 7 button mouse to behave like it did in Windows under various programs. OSX wouldn't acknowledge the additional buttons existed in any meaningful way. In Windows, the logitech mouse was plugged in once, detected once, and behavior could be set in the programs themselves, or in the mouse's control panel. OSX's mouse panel equivalent has pretty much no features by comparison or even showed the additional buttons, nor a program-by-program option. --- "The iPhoto Library is a single item that is very portable. If it's too large for a single DVD you can split it up into multiple archives with an archival tool." I wanted to burn a disc of picture files. Not all the files, not an archive, not an image, neither of which anyone else can use once its on the disc being proprietary. "if you specifically need to extract the individual files so you just have a large folder containing all photos, you can right click (control click) on the iPhoto Library, go to Show Package Contents, and all your photos will be there in folder format But even simpler, can't you just export the whole library from iPhoto using the export function? " When attempting your first suggestion, since the files -aren't- in a folder they're nested in an image, the disc burning program doesnt like that. And exporting the library in iPhoto renders most of the features in iPhoto null unless you keep both an iPhoto archive AND export it after every session of use. Remember, Iphoto edits are project-based non destructive, so every flip/rotate and redeye reduction isnt' actually saved to a file, its stored in a profile for that pic. In windows, from ANY filemanager window, I drag the picture files i want into the burning program thats open, or the burning program has its own finder. And no nesting everything into a proprietary hidden library that may or may not work with the paradigm of other program's use of the OS.

Drag the photos from iPhoto to whichever folder / disk you want to use.

They are also all made available in the file selection window by first going to "Photos" and then "iPhoto"

the iPhoto library isn't an image, it's a folder. All applications on a mac are actually just folders. If you right click on one and click Show Package Contents it makes the contents of the 'folder' available to you. If you do this on the iPhoto library all the original photos become available to you.

Also I do realize that Apple's mouse control panel is extremely limited, but that said, any program I've ever used that was able to bind mouse keys on a Mac has had no issue handling my 7 button mouse.

I did not mean to sound like a mac fan, it's just that I have used pretty much every operating system worth mentioning and have not once felt like the Apple products made anything harder. The only exception is sending an email from an iPhone with more than one image.

madmallard wrote: In reply to Taiden: ;p without realising it, you did essentially. "Expose and Spaces are all programmable to the extra mouse buttons." We weren't trying to mess with OSX ui. We were trying to get a 7 button mouse to behave like it did in Windows under various programs. OSX wouldn't acknowledge the additional buttons existed in any meaningful way. In Windows, the logitech mouse was plugged in once, detected once, and behavior could be set in the programs themselves, or in the mouse's control panel. OSX's mouse panel equivalent has pretty much no features by comparison or even showed the additional buttons, nor a program-by-program option. --- "The iPhoto Library is a single item that is very portable. If it's too large for a single DVD you can split it up into multiple archives with an archival tool." I wanted to burn a disc of picture files. Not all the files, not an archive, not an image, neither of which anyone else can use once its on the disc being proprietary. "if you specifically need to extract the individual files so you just have a large folder containing all photos, you can right click (control click) on the iPhoto Library, go to Show Package Contents, and all your photos will be there in folder format But even simpler, can't you just export the whole library from iPhoto using the export function? " When attempting your first suggestion, since the files -aren't- in a folder they're nested in an image, the disc burning program doesnt like that. And exporting the library in iPhoto renders most of the features in iPhoto null unless you keep both an iPhoto archive AND export it after every session of use. Remember, Iphoto edits are project-based non destructive, so every flip/rotate and redeye reduction isnt' actually saved to a file, its stored in a profile for that pic. In windows, from ANY filemanager window, I drag the picture files i want into the burning program thats open, or the burning program has its own finder. And no nesting everything into a proprietary hidden library that may or may not work with the paradigm of other program's use of the OS.

The answer to all of that is that sometimes you have to learn to do things differently. Why isn't my Mac more like windows is as bad a question as Why would you want to do that anyway is as an answer.

• As far as the mouse goes - you need a driver. If Logitech supports it for Mac they will have one. If not - SOL.
• You are not bound to using iPhoto if it is using some proprietary storage format... (I don't know... don't have it). There are many free and for pay image management programs available, from Picasa and Shotwell for free up to Adobe Lightroom for $300 - but you can also just organize them using the file system if you prefer to see thumbnails and copy/burn them as regular files. Change the finder window display to a stack view and scroll thru them. It isn;t very efficient but it is damn sexy.
• As far as the burner... mine works pretty much exactly like windows. Drag files to disk, choose options, burn.

In reply to Taiden:

The iphoto library -is- an image. Drag that 'folder' to an external drive and try to access it with something else. Heck, take digicam pictures, import them into iphoto, then drag that folder back onto the camera's flash memory and see if you can browse the pictures you just took using that camera.

...after coming from using MS product for the better part of 15 years, my sister decided to buy a mac 2 years ago and has hated it since day 1.

She loves her touch and phone, but looks at the mac with serious scorn at its wonkiness of file handling, its incompatibility with many products she has/wants, and the general nerf-ing of many components she's used to having control over.

but the worst is asking for help in using a Mac. When you ask someone "how do you do X like I did in Windows," the response invariably has included some form of "why do you want to do that" or "you shouldn't do that, this way is much better because its NOT windows." whereas -this way- doesnt accomplish the same thing. The passive condescension is usually so thick you could bake a cake with it...

If you go to England do you continue to drive on the left hand side of the road even though you can still probably get to your destination that way?

I think you are taking using Apple software the wrong way. You have a way you want to do it, and that's fine. But that way isn't going to give you the best results. If you want to be able to quickly transfer albums between your computer and various digital cameras perhaps Picasa is a better solution than iPhoto. I can only imagine that 15 years of windows use has you pretty set in your methods. This is not an issue for anyone but you, sadly.

Regardless, I have no issues quickly exporting multiple photos from iPhoto and putting it on various devices.

Taiden wrote: I think you are taking using Apple software the wrong way. You have a way you want to do it, and that's fine. But that way isn't going to give you the best results.

and there it is. You may not realise it, but saying such a thing is very condescending to someone's user experience. Its tantamount to saying "you don't know whats best for you, ever."

In some things in life that works. Tax filling, for example.

In the Windows universe, you have choice that doesn't exist because Apple has decided your expectation of a user experience isn't important, only what Apple presents to you is important. For some, this works fine, but for most Windows users this is ridiculous.

right now someone could take their entire user experience from Windows 3.11 and function in Windows 7, about %97 unchanged. The placement of new technologies in Windows for the most part -supplements- the existing way people use their computers, not replaces.

And I don't mean to pick on Mac fans, because linux proponents trying to get people to switch are just as guilty of this, but the same attitude appears. I call it the indignity of the minority. ;p

I dont know. When I went to Denmark, I ate my sandwiches with a fork and knife. I didn't finger food it, because that's not how it works over there. I don't see this as being any different. The world isn't designed to work the way I want it to. I am designed to adapt to the situations the world presents to me.

And in the case of Denmark, using the fork and knife ended up being for the best, seeing as public restrooms are practically non-existent for hand washing etc.

Taiden wrote: If you go to England do you continue to drive on the left hand side of the road even though you can still probably get to your destination that way? I think you are taking using Apple software the wrong way. You have a way you want to do it, and that's fine. But that way isn't going to give you the best results. If you want to be able to quickly transfer albums between your computer and various digital cameras perhaps Picasa is a better solution than iPhoto. I can only imagine that 15 years of windows use has you pretty set in your methods. This is not an issue for anyone but you, sadly. Regardless, I have no issues quickly exporting multiple photos from iPhoto and putting it on various devices.

If you go to America do you continue to drive on the right hand side of the road even though you can still probably get to your destination that way?

I think you are taking using Microsoft software the wrong way. You have a way you want to do it, and that's fine. But that way isn't going to give you the best results. If you want to be able to quickly transfer albums between your computer and various digital cameras perhaps Flickr is a better solution than MS Paint. I can only imagine that 15 years of OSX use has you pretty set in your methods. This is not an issue for anyone but you, sadly.

Regardless, I have no issues quickly exporting multiple photos from any windows program and putting it on various devices.

It goes both ways... People who have used Macs for a decade are lost when presented with a Windows PC. If they AREN'T, that's because they use them at work (because chances are, they do.... as PCs outnumber Macs 9:1.)

I've used PCs for a decade and then some. Macs confuse the ever-living E36 M3 out of me. But i'd like to learn. But then i sound like i want to learn something different just so i can be part of the less-than-10%.