In reply to Duke :
Thanks for the correction.
In reply to Duke :
Thanks for the correction.
In reply to matthewmcl :
Believe me, I'm with you. Occasional light drinking never hurt anybody.
It also tends to be a lot less annoying to those around you. You have to drink a lot for the smell to fill a room like smoke does. You just need to learn how to keep your voice down once you've got a little alcohol buzz going so your personality doesn't fill the room too.
Re: Alcohol vs. Tobacco
I am looking to seriously consider this, not flippant "gotchas" or pithy quips either direction.
I'll look to another industry we can all appreciate: Car culture and car modification.
Cars are dangerous. Cars kill people. They use up non-renewable resources and pollute. Many of the ways that people modify their cars make them unnecessarily more dangerous and more polluting. People add louder exhaust systems on cars just to be louder. Safe bet that modified vehicles and high-performance vehicles are more likely to be driven in an unsafe manner. We know the stories and memes about people launching into crowds at Mustang meets.
But that doesn't mean the whole industry or culture is painted with that same brush.
It is also a culture of creativity, camaraderie, experimentation and innovation. It brings joy and purpose to a lot of people.
It has negatives and positives. It is possible to separate those from each other. It is possible to engage with car culture and motosports in a way that emphasizes the positives. Yeah, motorsports is still dangerous, but it can be engaged with in a responsible manner that you're largely just increasing risk to yourself, not threatening others.
I'm cool with all that.
I see alcohol in a similar way. There are absolutely risks and negative aspects. There are unscrupulous elements that cause social harm. But there's a lot of culture and camaraderie. It is possible to actively engage with the industry to be part of the positive elements and not the really ethically questionable ones.
So... is tobacco the same way?
There is certainly negative social, health, and environmental impacts. There are unethical and unscrupulous practices. I don't know of any industry that doesn't have those.
Is it possible to engage with the tobacco industry in a positive way? Does it also have a culture of creativity and camaraderie that it fosters and supports? Is it possible to selectively engage with the industry in a way where I am able to support the elements I believe in and not the elements I do not?
I do not know the answer to that, but my gut says that working for Phillip Morris or one of its subsidiaries is not that.
Honestly, I can see almost no positives to the tobacco industry. My elderly mother live with me. After a lifetime of smoking, she quit ten years ago. Since then she had her left iliac artery worked on due to Peripheral Artery disease, had a lobectomy on her right lung due to cancer, and just last week had a Abdominal Aortic Aneurysm repaired. Cancer also took my Father last July. The tobacco industry is responsible for millions of unnecessary deaths and probably billions of work hours lost due to smoke breaks. While I am not a drinker, I can understand it's place in society if used in moderation. There is no such thing as moderation when it comes to cigarettes. They. Will. Kill. You
In reply to Beer Baron :
To me the major difference between working for an alcohol company and working for a tobacco company is how physically addictive nicotine is - it's nature's most addictive substance. Most people can drink occasionally, or even occasionally drink heavily, and never develop a physical addiction to alcohol. The same isn't true for cigarettes. After just a few packs of cancer sticks you're hooked whether you like it or not.
Another issue is how vehemently the tobacco industry has denied the harms it causes and is constantly chomping at the bit to advertise vapes to kids.
Beer Baron said:Re: Alcohol vs. Tobacco
I am looking to seriously consider this, not flippant "gotchas" or pithy quips either direction.
I'll look to another industry we can all appreciate: Car culture and car modification.
Cars are dangerous. Cars kill people. They use up non-renewable resources and pollute. Many of the ways that people modify their cars make them unnecessarily more dangerous and more polluting. People add louder exhaust systems on cars just to be louder. Safe bet that modified vehicles and high-performance vehicles are more likely to be driven in an unsafe manner. We know the stories and memes about people launching into crowds at Mustang meets.
But that doesn't mean the whole industry or culture is painted with that same brush.
It is also a culture of creativity, camaraderie, experimentation and innovation. It brings joy and purpose to a lot of people.
It has negatives and positives. It is possible to separate those from each other. It is possible to engage with car culture and motosports in a way that emphasizes the positives. Yeah, motorsports is still dangerous, but it can be engaged with in a responsible manner that you're largely just increasing risk to yourself, not threatening others.
I'm cool with all that.
I see alcohol in a similar way. There are absolutely risks and negative aspects. There are unscrupulous elements that cause social harm. But there's a lot of culture and camaraderie. It is possible to actively engage with the industry to be part of the positive elements and not the really ethically questionable ones.
So... is tobacco the same way?
There is certainly negative social, health, and environmental impacts. There are unethical and unscrupulous practices. I don't know of any industry that doesn't have those.
Is it possible to engage with the tobacco industry in a positive way? Does it also have a culture of creativity and camaraderie that it fosters and supports? Is it possible to selectively engage with the industry in a way where I am able to support the elements I believe in and not the elements I do not?
I do not know the answer to that, but my gut says that working for Phillip Morris or one of its subsidiaries is not that.
I tend to agree with your assessment. I have friends who enjoy pipes and there is this whole culture around that. I cannot stand the smell, and often will get a migraine for days with any type of tobacco, I was spanked as a child for chewing with my mouth open, mostly because I couldn't breathe through my nose because my parents both smoked, and I had tubes in my ears twice to deal with the reactions, and my father still doesn't believe I have any sort of real reaction, so perhaps I am not unbiased.
All that said, I would have trouble working for a company pretty obviously unscrupulous and interested in addiction, which is a very very different thing.
In reply to Beer Baron :
You might find the similar creativity in the tobacco industry in "craft" cigars, or pipe making. I would not expect that to be Phillip Morris, either. Sounds like a no-go.
These thoughts mirror my own.
People get addicted to alcohol and it harms them. But most of these people have a physical or psychological predisposition to alcoholism or addictive behavior. But the alcohol itself is not inherently addictive. I've quit drinking for periods of time, and not had any kind of withdrawals.
Nicotine... I've known people to become addicted to from just being *around* smoke.
I see the high-end tobacco segment (e.g. cigars and pipes) as ethical and having a culture to them. No one involved is going to claim it's a healthy habit, but it is a luxury item of adults making an informed decision to opt in. It's almost never a compulsive habit.
I could make the argument that, being involved in the production side of things, I'm just filling a role created by existing demand, and if not me, someone is going to end up doing it. I'm not in the marketing or business strategy departments that are working to create or promote that demand.
That feels like a rationalization though.
Even if I can rationalize it not being harmful, I don't think it's a job I'd feel *proud* to do.
I have been at mega corp a long time. It's a good job, it has tough parts but it has good parts and I generally feel pretty good about it. Since Covid and remote work it has had some real strangeness and I have been ok because the trade off for WFH has been worth it. I signed up for 25% travel as part of the WFH assignment. Well for the past 2 months that has been 50%, 50% is berkeleying hard when you have 2 kids and a wife at home. Just got home yesterday and ON THE FLIGHT HOME I find out I need to be back on the road in 10 days. UGH
My rant:
I am working on Tunas Razor: Those who attempt to run your life are generally terrible at running their own.
In reply to tuna55 :
Everybody wants you to be what they want you to be.
Appleseed said:In reply to tuna55 :
Everybody wants you to be what they want you to be.
Easy Like Sunday Morning.
I have Lionel on vinyl and that song still gives me chills.
In reply to mad_machine :
First question at a medical facility, Doctor or hospital; you smoke? Quit.
I quit smoking almost 30 years ago and sometimes I think about it, having a single cigarette or I have dreams I'm smoking again. It's a weird addiction.
In reply to Beer Baron :
To be fair, I know a lot of people who smoke the occasional cigar that same way you describe alcohol.
But honestly I agree that alcohol is a lot less likely to have long term health effects if you use it in moderation.
Ordered a brisket 2.5 weeks ago, usually takes my meat girl a week to get things in. Nothing. Go down and check this morning, "our guy doesn't want to split a case, 70-75lbs" ok, how much is a case? "He won't tell us". Tell him you're losing money then. I'd rather do business with you because I can walk here, but if he's not willing to do business there's other places to go.
I'll buy a whole case of 5-7 briskets, that's not a problem. I need 4 for my Memorial day party, at least one to practice on now, and I promise the rest won't go to waste. Get me a price. but if the meat guy doesn't want to sell, you're gonna need to find one that will.
In reply to Beer Baron :
I'll play the other side here. While I've never had this personal dilemna myself, I've thought a lot about it. My dad worked for B&W out of college, for 10 years, before moving to Anheuser Busch and then Abbott/Hospira/Pfizer for the last 25 years of his career. My family also had tobacco farms in Kentucky going back nearly 200 years. So the tobacco industry has been integral in my family history, though any involvement post 1984 would have been limited to leasing cheap farmland. Until 2010ish, I actually was a partial owner of the original farm (well, 1/150th of it... 1/3 of 1/5 of 1/10 of the farm).
It is just a job. Someone is going to do it. You're not in marketing, you're not in sales, you're not in strategy, you're not in product development, nor are you a chemist/researcher. You're just making sure that the product that will be purchased by millions regardless of your involvement is as safe as you can make it. You're good at that, so you're providing a net benefit. It still may feel wrong, but I personally would not see an issue with it.
Also, you say that you wouldn't have an issue with the "craft" tobacco industry. Well... Much of the craft industry is still owned by big tobacco. And they're also branching into cannabis, I know Altria has a 45% stake in a Canadian company. So there is possibly some options to diversify in the future, though with the current political climate that may be limited to specific states.
You are likely already an owner of the companies via your 401k/IRA/403b/whatever retirement accounts you have. Do you want to divest from those positions?
Philip Morris, by which I assume you mean Altria, is going to be about the best of the best. If you want to stay in Richmond, this would likely put you in a good spot for a move into the craft tobacco industry if you want, otherwise, the craft alcohol industry is there too.
Additionally...
In reply to mtn :
Yes, Altria specifically.
You do a good job of highlighting why this is a dilemma for me, and I don't believe it's an obvious ethical answer. My knee-jerk reaction is "no", but I also feel like that's an emotional reflex and not necessarily fully considered.
Big thing driving this desire to move is being closer to family in Alexandria. We like being in decently sized cities. Although I would earn more, my wife's salary would not increase, so that means looking for places with cost of living that aren't too far off of where we are in Columbus. Richmond is the obvious answer there.
In reply to mtn :
A lot of people like to advertise cigarettes for free by copying these liveries...
In reply to Beer Baron :
How's the craft brewing business in Richmond? If you decide working for big tobacco is not for you, is there a reasonable chance of finding a brewing job that can cover your cost of living nearby?
In reply to Beer Baron :
In 30 years, not once did someone hold a gun to my head and force me to smoke. Not once. I started because the people around me smoked and my parents didn't. All it took to quit was deciding to quit. Blaming smoking on tobacco companies is as bad as blaming water for getting you wet after you dumped it over your head. They can't say they don't or didn't know the consequences. They just did it anyway. Anyone who blames big tobacco on their choice to smoke is a weak person looking for someone else to blame for their own poor decisions.
I quit cigarettes 12 years ago and didn't touch tobacco for 8 years until I knew I was no longer addicted to it. No cravings, no urges. I still love the smell of tobacco or just about any smoke. Now, I smoke a couple of cigars a week for the pleasure of it. Not much is better with a coffee on a cool morning than a Padron 1964 Anniversary Maduro Exclusivo.
Tobacco and alcohol are two peas in a pod. Add pot and you have 3. No one forces anyone to buy or use it. Feeling guilt over another adult's choices is a waste. Spend your energy on something else.
^ That. I'm grown I realize the Newport people don't have my best interest at heart and yet they make a product that makes me feel a little better throughout the day I'm glad I live in a world where I'm able to choose to do something bad for me if I see value in that activity. For what it's worth I also drink and get high the vice may be slightly different but I'd imagine whatever brings one to want/need to alter their brain chemistry with any sort of substance is pretty universal.
Life has shown me being the good guy doesn't get anybody all that far and the general consuming public would literally not piss on you to extinguish you in a fire situation so berkeley em. If the tobacco man is gonna pay you good and treat you and yours right make your money.
Couple years ago I was more or less in your shoes, running and making successful someone's business that I had ownership stake in, they cared only about their ego and ability to use the business as a personal ATM. No respect, no compassion, and no appreciation ever came my way. Getting out from under it cost me everything, my tools, my health, my passion, and every penny I had. I'm now a cog in a dealership machine soul sucking yes but not having a heartfelt involvement in your work makes it a lot easier to leave at 5 and move onto the important things.
In reply to Toyman! :
Tobacco companies aren't completely blameless. No one forces people to smoke, but any company that creates this as a mascot knows exactly what they are doing.
In reply to Appleseed :
Think of all the people that bought crappy cars because of advertising. Or the people who married the wrong people because of advertising. Do you blame the advertiser or the person who didn't make the best choice? The world is full of advertising and 99% of it is ignored. Read a GRM lately. Did you have the urge to buy race car parts because of a really cool car or a fast lap time? Did you resist?
Sorry, people ignore advertising every day. Blaming the company because they couldn't resist is ridiculous. I loved the Bud Wise Er Fog commercials in the mid 90s. I didn't run out and buy beer. I also didn't smoke Marlboros because of the Marlboro Man, though I did give Players a try because of this.
In reply to Toyman! :
Yeah, but those people are adults. Joe Camel was 100% marketed to kids. Kids are dumb and impulsive and more easily manipulated than a grizzled adult.
Big tobacco isn't any more evil than most giant industries, but it is evil, nonetheless.
It is less evil today because of the laws that we have implemented. They definitely marketed to teenagers and children. I had a Joe Camel plush toy at one point. Why would they make such a thing? Why would an adult ever want that? Supposedly at one point they handed out free 4-packs of Kool's on high school campuses.
Nowadays I have much less problem with it. They're not really allowed to advertise, no commercials, no billboards, can't sponsor events, no free samples, no promotional items... Gone are the days of getting a gym bag or Fuji bike for smoking 10 cartons of marlboros, or Winston sponsoring a children's tv show...
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