Motorhome towing a small car or truck towing a trailer?

In reply to infinitenexus :

Towing the Jeep at 60-65 I get around 7-8. At 70 plus it drops into the 5-6 range. That doesn't sound like much difference but with single-digit returns, from 5 to 7 is a pretty significant jump percentage-wise. Driving 2000 miles a year, round trip from somewhere up north to somewhere down south would cost you about $1000. 

The DPs I have looked into get 8-10. That comes with significantly higher maintenance costs though and frequently higher fuel costs. Maintenance on a DP is expensive. 

I figured for the difference in price between my $4500 used gas RV and a $30k plus used diesel I could buy a lot of gas and I only put 2000 to 4000 miles a year on mine. 

That said, if I was doing a lot of driving, I would still prefer the diesel. The extra torque makes for a better driving experience.

Just a clever pictoral guide for what I think might be good pairings:

This 24' Wilderness was 6800 GVWR and I towed it with an 88 GMT400 light 3/4 (heavy half).  The TBI 350 was abyssmal and it only got 6 mpg, but otherwise a great pair.  I upgraded to a 98 K3500 6.5TD.  It was the "light" 1-ton, non dually, crew cab long bed.  The longer wheelbase and added torque of the 6.5TD was wonderful.

This was a 31' Wilderness that was either 8900 or 9200 (I forget) and I towed it with an F250 Powerstroke (pictured below the trailer).  Fantastic pair.  On longer days, if the weather wasn't perfect, it made for some fatigue.  A dually would have been better, but only for those rare days when I just wanted to make some miles.  If you're not on a schedule, perfect.  This was the rig we lived in full-time, so I put hardcore miles on it.  One month we decide that we're done with Miami, so let's move to Kalispell, MT.  Then three months later, maybe Boston, or Portland, or Los Angeles... and every summer we went from wherever we were to Ontario Canada, which usually meant a 3000+ mile trip.  So when I say that I  sometimes got fatigued it was because I was DRIVING... A LOT.  For a normal, sane person, it would have been 2000% ok.

This 32' Holiday Rambler was 9800 max and towed mostly with an 04 K2500 Dmax, short bed, crew cab.  The truck did OK with it, but it would have been nicer if it either had a longer wheelbase or a dually rear.  Just more rubber on the road to "plant" the truck would have done wonders.

This is apparently the only photo I have of my current 5er.  It's a 92 Sportsman.  It's a beefy steel frame, 9200 lb max, 32' (which is more like 35 overall since 5ers were measured to the pin in those days) and I towed it with the F150-7700 pictured below it.  It was more than adequate.  (forgive the messy porch... this was when I pulled the Holiday Rambler out and put the 5er in, so that's all the junk from one trailer being transfered to the other.)

My rule is:  With a 5er, as long as the truck can handle the weight, you can go darn near as long as you want.   With a TT, as long as the truck can handle the length, then you can go as heavy as you want (within reason).  With a 5er, you'll run out of towing weight capacity before you run out of safe length.  With a TT, you'll usually run out of safe length before you reach the max towing weight, especially if you're talking about a modern lightweight RV.

To add one more... this is my buddy's rig.  It's an F150 EB with a 32' Forest River.  With the caveat that he isn't a very experienced tow driver, his reaction to towing it is "worst choice I ever made in my life."  The EB is great.  The truck is great.  The weight isn't too much.  He claims he is scared to go above 55mph for fear of losing control of it when a truck passes or if it's a windy day.

Again, he's not the most experienced, but 32' can be too much for even a modern 1/2 ton regardless of weight.  Had he done a 32' 5er, I'm sure he wouldn't have the same answer.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Thank you for all the excellent information you've given me! This is really a lot to think about. The awesome price that Toyman! scored his class A for really makes it appealing. So here's my thoughts on the two options we're considering:

Truck/5th wheel: I looked around this morning and found a decent number of nice, modern 5th wheel trailers for 12-15K. They don't seem to go below that unless they're significantly older and possibly in questionable shape. Trailers get super cheap, but I'd rather have a 5th wheel for better towing. That being said, 1) I don't want to have an F350 dually as my tow vehicle, because that's what I'll be driving around all the time when the trailer is parked. I'd enjoy a nice 4 door F150 Ecoboost (or similar GM product), but I'd have to be really careful with the weight on the 5th wheel in that case. Towing would be maybe 9-12mpg from what I gather, and even with a nice truck it could get sketchy on windy days. This option is better because the gas mileage while towing would be superior, I'd only have drivetrain maintenance on one vehicle, and the interiors of the 5th wheel trailers we checked out were pretty much perfect for us. Downsides? A fairly recent F150 3.5 ecoboost isn't the cheapest truck. At least around here, the best price I can find for a 2015ish one is about $20K. Add in another $12K for a used 5th wheel, $1K for some basic renovations, and another $2k for random stuff that I know we'll need, and that's 35 grand. I know we'd be happy with the trailer, and overall that's an excellent price when you think of it as a house, but it is more expensive.

Class A/car on a trailer: In a 2 minute search I found half a dozen Class As below 10K in excellent shape (one was a Tiffin). I even found a nice diesel pusher for $7K, if that's a route I wanted to go. As long as we got one with good slideouts I think we'd be okay on space, although I'd automatically tack another $2K onto the price for some renovations and redoing some sections. Then I'd just need to find a relatively inexpensive, lightweight car trailer for whatever we're towing. Less room than a 5th wheel of course, but with slideouts and some tweaks to the layout I think we'd be okay. A big positive about this option is that it'll drive better down the road (granted with either rig we'd probably keep it at 55mph max, just to save gas). Being able to tow a car is a big plus as well. If we're sitting somewhere for 4 months, then we can drive the Prius around and enjoy 50mpg and heated seats. Or maybe buy something fun to put around in. Gas mileage while driving the entire rig would suck, but it's not like we're driving it every day. Right now our initial thoughts are basically to spend a month or more in most places--I'm sure we'll spend a week here, a week there, but mostly long stays of a month minimum. This option would be much cheaper initially, and Toyman! hasn't had any mechanical issues with his, so that's a plus. Also, our daily driver would be a car I actually liked (I don't really like trucks). 

It looks like there's a lot of positives and negatives with either option. Class A/car would tow better, probably cost less, and our daily car would be better. Truck/5th wheel would have more room, which is a pretty important thing to take into consideration. I guess it'll depend on what's available in this area when the time comes near!

So here's a question: Let's say I get an older class A with a 460 or 454. The gas mileage will be horrible, of course. Being such a common engine, if I tossed on a set of inexpensive headers and did a few basic mods like that to free up some power on the engine, could I see a 1-2mpg increase? I imagine it would do a little better towing, or on hills. Is it even worth it? Do I need a class A with a blown 454 and sidepipes? Maybe hot rod flames on the side? Better rear end gears would help as well, I imagine.  I guess it'll depend on how much we plan on driving, to see how long the mods would pay for themselves.

edit: from a read on irv2.com it looks like doing some basic intake/headers/exhaust/rear end gears can get you nearly 10mpg with a 454-powered class A, as long as you keep it down to 55-60mph.

In reply to infinitenexus :

Banks makes a kit for the 460 that claims HP and MPG improvements. I will probably put their headers on it if I crack the manifolds on my 460. 

As for the 454, I would pass on the P30 GM chassis. I haven't heard anyone have anything good to say about them. The Workhorse chassis is supposed to be OK. We have friends with the Workhorse and they do complain about handling and wandersteer. That may well be maintenance issues or just poorly loaded. 

And if you want fast, the RV land speed record was set by a GMC at a little over 140 mph. 

This is not quite the Skoolie but has the vibe and dna. 
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/30000-lb-turbo-project/126708/page1/

I love the ability to order lunch from the helm, trade drivers on the fly for a bathroom break. It's slow. It's heavy. It's impractical. What's not to like?

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

 

My rule is:  With a 5er, as long as the truck can handle the weight, you can go darn near as long as you want.   With a TT, as long as the truck can handle the length, then you can go as heavy as you want (within reason).  With a 5er, you'll run out of towing weight capacity before you run out of safe length.  With a TT, you'll usually run out of safe length before you reach the max towing weight, especially if you're talking about a modern lightweight RV.

 

Can you explain that with a little more detail?   Or how do you calculate the max length of a trailer you can pull?  I know that trailers are measured tongue to bumper- but does the axle location factor into that, too?  That would be good to know that.

Very much agree on avoiding a P30. I had one and I may still have PTSD from our trip from wpb, Montauk, to Maine and back towing an odyssey. Let's just say it was an "experience" 

The Fossil gets (got)  8 to 10 regardless of whether we had the toad (4500 pound jeep).  I am used to driving big stuff and I found it very comfortable to drive a long way so long as there were no hills....

Again I'm going to weigh in here as someone who worked in a heavy duty shop situated near a couple large RV parks.

Class A maintenance can be a nightmare.  Odball parts, wiring that is frightening in both design and quality, windshields that can be really expensive and hard to find, goofy A/C systems, circus contortionist access to mechanical components, etc, etc.

A pickup will be relatively easy to maintain, and a 5th wheel basically consists of a frame, and a couple standard axles.  

There is no question at all which way I would go, unless I had large bags of money to play with.

jh36 said:

I love the ability to order lunch from the helm, trade drivers on the fly for a bathroom break. It's slow. It's heavy. It's impractical. What's not to like?

And you're towing a Porsche behind it, which makes it perfect.

I'd be really nervous about a $7k diesel pusher, honestly.  That's about the bottom of the market for a decent gasser with no slides from what I've shopped.

Now, maybe it's because I just haven't spent any time in anything else, but I don't think the P30 is completely fraught with peril.  Yeah, the 454 is really thirsty and its power is a bit underwhelming for the chassis, but it's not the end of the world.  I've towed through the Smokies with a car on a trailer and as long as you have a little bit of patience, it's not all that bad.  Yeah, it wants to tram a little bit, and every time a semi blows past, you will get pushed to the shoulder and then sucked back in, but it's not that much worse than a van pulling an enclosed trailer.  If you're shopping for a bargain, I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

As far as mileage, I've got the Banks powerpack on my TBI 454 and I've put 19,305 miles on it while stuffing 2,593 gallons of fuel in it since May 2016, for an average of 7.44.  Now, some of that fuel was burned in the generator, and a couple trips saw reduced mileage because I had a brake caliper that was seizing up.  On my trips to the Rolex, once I get past the mountains and am going through Georgia and Florida where it's a bit flatter, I'm seeing around 8.4-9.  When I'm towing the overall trip average is more like 7.7 when I take out the generator usage.  The trip to Canton from Cincinnati and back (no towing) was 7.6.  Gulf Shores and back (no towing) was about 8.2 and there was generator usage while out on the road to run the rooftop air.

That said, pretty much any motorhome built on that chassis is going to be absolutely hateful to try to live in.  At the era that the P30 was phasing out the manufacturers were phasing in slides in a big way, so most of the P30 chassis that you'll find will not be so-equipped.  What we've found in the last 6 years is that it's the narrowness of the coach that really makes it feel small along with the low ceilings.  The ceiling height is a mind thing, but the fact that you can't pass anyone in the hallway and the fact that when the couch is in "bed mode", you can't enter or exit the coach because it's blocking the door make it somewhat tiresome.  You can live with it for a short trip, especially when you're spending most of your time under the canopy outside, but when you're cooped up in there, it wears on you a bit.

In the used class A space, I'd lean towards the newer Ford chassis with the 6.8 V10.  They used the 2v version through 2004 and the 3v until whenever they stopped putting that in the F53 chassis.  DPs are going to be very spendy for a good one on initial buy in or they're going to be very spendy in deferred maintenance on a bad one.  Both with be spendy for ongoing maintenance.  The 6.8 on the F53 or the 8.1 on the Workhorse will get the job done for you though.  If you want to pull your very large trailer and/or a very large car, then the DP will be the best at that, no doubt.  Plus with the engine in the back, it's a much quieter drive down the road and if you run the genny, it'll be a quieter night's sleep since the genny will be in the front instead of under your bed.  I'd go gas and just buy a smaller car to flat tow with a Blue Ox setup.  As I understand your requirements, the goal is to stay for longer periods of time at a single destination, not spend lots of time eating up miles going from place-to-place with short stays here and there.  So bias your decision criteria more on what it's going to be like to live in it and less on what it's going to be like to ride in it.

One last thing to think about, especially when you're looking at older coaches, is that you're now dealing with a whole system of parts that are made cheaply by different people, intended for occasional use, and spend a lot of their lifetime going through cold/hot cycles and bouncing down the road.  The good news is that the various parts are not tremendously expensive if you can afford to wait on Amazon or another internet retailer to ship you something.  But mobile RV services are expensive because they can be.  Some things are easy to find anywhere and super cheap - the thermostat for the water heater, for example.  Other things are not.  People will try to sell you an RV with a cracked windshield.  Those are about $1,000 per side, so budget accordingly and make sure you have glass coverage on your insurance.  Control boards for appliances can be replaced easily if you shop the Dinosaur Electronics catalog - weirdly, the exact same control board that I put in my water heater will work in my furnace.  You're going to become a mechanic-appliance-repairman-roofer-glazier-carpenter-plumber-hvac-tech and the older the coach, the more of that sort of work you'll need to do.  Your water heater will never die at the end of a trip, the furnace will never go out when it's just slightly chilly, and the fridge will never stop working when you don't have a fresh load of groceries in it.  The older you go, the more of this you'll have to fight.  It can be a bargain as long as you're willing to tackle that stuff yourself, but if you intend to call in the pros to handle that sort of thing, it will eat you alive.

In reply to infinitenexus :

Have you been to an RV show? Might give you an idea about differences in feel between an A, a 5th wheel and TTs of various lengths. 

Staying somewhere for a month sounds expensive. RV parks are not cheap these days. And they get booked months in advance since everyone and their mother is on the RV/work-remote bandwagon right now.

I remember from my days driving older conversion van and pickup trucks - highway speeds make a huge difference in MPG when pushing a brick down the road, so your 55-60 MPH max is good.  However, on some roads you will definitely feel like a rolling chicane. On the PATP, for example where the speed limit is 70 (and everyone is doing 80+), 60 MPH may as well be stopped. 

I'm firmly in the truck/trailer camp.  Pardon the pun. 

One of the biggest reasons is that I hate having a rig that can't be backed up.  That's also my biggest objection to car dollies in general. A car trailer behind a coach fixes that to some extent but as long as the coach is longer than the trailer backing up is still difficult.

I also don't like being able to run at highway speeds and out here in the southwest that means 80 MPH.  There are coaches that'll do that but you have to spend a lot of money to get one.  A modern diesel pickup will do that with a 10k pound trailer on all but the steepest of hills.

I've had a full size pickup truck as my daily driver for close to forty years so it doesn't feel like a compromise to have to drive one when I get to my destination.  Sure it won't physically fit in some parking spaces and parking garages can be an issue hight wise but other than that it's not an issue.

A properly setup pickup truck and trailer shouldn't be hard to drive.  One of the biggest problems I've seen is that there are some really badly designed and built travel trailers.  If the weight distribution is off or the trailer is flexing all over the place then it's going to be difficult to tow no matter what the truck.  I'd want to tow a trailer of the same make and model before I bought one.  I also suggest renting a few before shelling out the cash for your own to get a feel for what you like or don't like.

Just to add that Priuses cannot be flat towed, or even pushed too fast by hand, without damaging one of the motor/generators, so it would need to be on a trailer or dolly, which adds to the PITA.  Jeeps are popular toads because you can just connect the tow bar, shift the transfer case in neutral, and go.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

Just to add that Priuses cannot be flat towed, or even pushed too fast by hand, without damaging one of the motor/generators, so it would need to be on a trailer or dolly, which adds to the PITA.  Jeeps are popular toads because you can just connect the tow bar, shift the transfer case in neutral, and go.

Just make sure that lever is in the right spot!

wae said:

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

Just to add that Priuses cannot be flat towed, or even pushed too fast by hand, without damaging one of the motor/generators, so it would need to be on a trailer or dolly, which adds to the PITA.  Jeeps are popular toads because you can just connect the tow bar, shift the transfer case in neutral, and go.

Just make sure that lever is in the right spot!

And apparently most 2WD Jeep Wranglers can NOT be flat towed, since they lack the transfer case ability to shift the drivetrain into N. 

Definitely do research before choosing a toad vehicle. 

Thanks for all the good advice, guys!  I'll try to address a few things.

From what I've read on irv2.com, and from some of the stories here, I'll probably look for a gas class A from the 90s. I'll definitely get the newest I can, but there's a ton of them from the late 90s that are a dime a dozen. Much newer than that and the prices skyrocket.

Wae--thanks for the tip on the narrowness of that chassis. We will definitely be getting one with a slideout, preferably two. Slideouts are a must, non-negotiable. 

Our plan is to stay at places for longer periods of time, don't know how long yet, we'll decide in two years. But our thought is to stay somewhere for a few months (or maybe one, or six, who knows) then enjoy a nice slow trip across the country to somewhere else. With things like boondockers welcome, it makes it pretty easy. 7-9mpg will probably be what we're getting, no matter what. I dunno. Like I said, we have a long time to plan this. Right now it's somewhere between a thought exercise and a realistic dream.

I figured the Prius would have to be on a dolly. That could complicate things a tad, but we love that car and the 50mpg it gets so we'll keep it (and it'll be paid of by then). If we had to get something else, well, at least now I understand why everyone tows a Jeep. I don't really care for Jeeps, but at least they have a huge community.

Right now our plan is to save up and rent a motorhome for a weekend and see how it feels. There's a few places around here that rent them, so when the weather warms up we'll give it a try!

I think we'll take to living in a motorhome pretty easily, considering right now we have a very small apartment and we're kinda minimalists. Space-wise, it'll be a fairly easy change. I just find the whole thing exciting, even knowing that I have to plan our entire lives like a year in advance. 

Saturns were popular toads because the automatics could be flat towed indefinitely and the odometer would not rack up miles with the ignition off.  Saturn also had a tow bar accessory.

People would buy a new SL2, have us mount the tow bar, and take it off the lot with their RV!  It was popular enough that we kept the tow bars in stock.

I have very little to add. Curtis and others have covered it all quite well, and 100% of the advice had been good. A few minor points  I would differ with, but they are all in the personal tastes category. 

I will point out that I have experienced that 4x4 trucks do not tow better than an equivalent 2wd. Opposite of what I hear a lot, but others on here are aware as well, so I  thought it worth mentioning. Unless you need the 4wd to get unstuck from a bad situation, 2wd tows better at speed. 
With most of the trailer towing (a lot) I've done, I have not really noticed a difference in mpg from a lower top speed. 60 mph to 80 gets me about the same - usually pretty bad! Only Motor Coach I've owned is the big boy (class 8 semi conversion) and it does not either. But it's 5.5 to 6, so not typical!

The 2011 F150 EB 4x4 4dr  w/9800 lb tow rating did not really like towing the 5000 lb 26' TT at speed - front end wanted to dance around, even with a properly set up weight distribution hitch. Not impressed. The 3.5 eb had all the power  and tq. needed, though. Not the best on mpg, but sure did like to be run hard!

The chebby with the 4.8 and factory tow package towed the same set up at speed fine, except the engine was a total pig. I think the 4.3 V6 would have pulled as well (I towed a lot more than I should with Astro vans)

Even after swapping the rear gear to a 3.91, that engine did not like to work. I hear the 6.0 does not have that problem!!!

03Panther said:

The 3.5 eb had all the power  and tq. needed, though. Not the best on mpg, but sure did like to be run hard!

I know something with a Lincoln Navigator that has the 3.5EB and they get about 9-10mpg towing at 70, but even with that gigantic SUV towing a 28' trailer, they can accelerate with traffic no problem. Definitely a powerful engine.